A Piece of Advice for any "new" musician in SL

Jasmine Usher · A Piece of Advice for any "new" musician in SL

First of let me state for the record I am not looking for sympathy nor any fawning over the events that recently took place. This message is a warning for lack of a better term to anyone who is considering performing in Second Life. So without any further ado onward to the message.

Today I performed in SL and was told by the hostess it would be only for tips. Np thats fine. ONLY after I got done singing was I then informed by the hostess that the "managment" ask that the artists tip the venue 10% of every thousand Linden they received from the audience. I was in a hurry to enjoy the RL sun so I passed her some lindens and was done with it. Give an inch and they take a mile.

They can keep their lindens that where gotten by deceit and Thank you for the education on scammers in Second life. Anyone who is performing in Second Life Make sure you ask! if you are going to be charged to sing!

If anyone wishes to know the name of the venue please contact me inworld. I realize that none of this matters as they can simply create an alt and do it again.. However, I am compelled to speak up so that others may not fall into the same scam I did.

Still singing

Jas Usher

Cher Harrington

Big hugs, Jasmine! Perhaps they heard how great you are and decided that they wanted a piece of your pie afterwards?

I have a hugeeeeee confirming notecard for artists so there are no misunderstandings, its all up front...

I heard Jasmine at an open mic and encouraged her to play more in SL, feel so bad....

Zak Claxton

Whoa. Just so you know, after more than a year of performing in SL very often, that's a) never happened to me, and b) I'd tell the person to shove it so far up their asses that they'd have to reach down their throat for it, if it ever did.

I do tip back my venues, but if anyone TOLD me to do it, they can blow me.

Jojamela Soon

Jasmine, that's just so wrong! so sorry to hear that happened to you Sad

Haroldthe Burrel

Silas Scarborough

Jasmine, here's another vote of support. Changing the deal after it's made is not right any time, any place. They definitely did you wrong.

Soundcircel Flanagan

Im Sorry Jasmine that this happens.

It shows actually more about you then about them

You could have logged out and said "Bye Bye"
but you shoved them some Lindens instead...

This means that you are a sincere person who just loves to sing
and is not into dramatic stuff.....

And mighty Linden knows we need those people around here Smile

vonjohin · Re: A Piece of Advice for any "new" musician in SL

I'm sorry you had a bad go of it. It would be interesting to know what venue did this.

Like Zak, that has not happened to me here.

ticious

My guess here Jasmine, is that these weren't scammers . . . they were novices who don't understand how business is done and were making up rules as they went along. Most likely, they're brand new to running shows, expected your tips to run to a couple hundred lindies, saw what you got and got greedy.

All that said, Zak is 100% right, that's exactly what you should have told them!!! If they are in fact novices (and well meaning), it would have been their first lesson in doing biz in the *real* virtual world. If I'm giving them more credit then they're due (and they were scammers), then they deserve to not only have this outrageous reneg shoved up their asses, someone should nail a board across it after. In no way of looking at it, did they deserve a share of your lindies.

When we book a musician, we prepare a booking slip for the venue owner to approve. It includes fee information as well as tip guarantee and tip split information. So all that is CLEAR up front. No venue gives a tip guarantee anymore (at least I haven't come across one in ages), and some of our artist don't split tips (tho tipping a portion back to the venue is real commonplace) these things are STILL covered on the booking slip so there are NO misunderstanding at show time.

*big hugs* to you sweetie . . .and remember when shit like this happens, there are folks out there who think they can make stuff up as they go . . . you just gotta say no. The worst they can do is not ask you back to play at their venue again. And even if they did, I sure hope you'd tell them no anyways (and hopefully with the appropriate Zak quote).

PS To any novice reading this thread: This sort of thing is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN standard practice among venues. Tip sharing is not uncommon, but it's ALWAYS agreed when the show is booked and it's extremely rare on a tips only show!!!

Jasmine Usher

Thank you all for your support. I do believe in giving back to the venues but next time I will give because I WANT to not because it obligated or thrown upon me last minute. Yeah I should have given them the bird or laughed my @rse off but my main concern at the time was getting out and enjoying the last bit of sunshine. And that's what I did and I got a song out of it. Smile

Nothing like turning a negative into a positive. Razz

Norris Shepherd

Hey Jasmine.. yeah.. that really sucks. I'd just chalk it up to experience.

I know I've had some pretty strange things suggested to me by a couple of fly by night venues that have come and gone. One place told me I could play for tips, but If I had received 1000 Linden, any tips beyond that would go to the venue. For some reason i didn't get back to them....

Just got to shrug it off i guess.

ticious

Doubledown Tandino

I'm jumping on as devil's advocate for a second....

(Jas, you're 100% right, and yes, everyone saying they'd find various things to shove up venue owners asses is what I agree with too)

..... however.... Jas, lemme ask you this: You're a fresh new performer in SL.... the venue provided enough of a crowd to make it worth your while to not only just play for tips, but then to also give the venue 10%. Jas, how much promo on your end did you do? How many people that were there were there because the venue/mgmt/hostess got them there?

.... SO I will say it's a 1000% wrong to change the rules after the fact.... yes, the venue/hostess are scammers and shady fcuks.
But it sounded like the gig still worked out... you got paid well in tips, had a large crowd for being a new performer, and put it out of your mind fairly quickly to enjoy the RL sun.

Also, lemme ask ya, did the hostess or any staff tip you at all?

Zak Claxton

ticious

Zak, talk to Nad, maybe he'll let you borrow his rhyming dictionary Wink

vonjohin

Tipping the venue or sharing the tips the performer earns should be either discussed in advance as their policy, or a purely personal decision. Obviously, never after the fact.

When I am hired to play a venue, I am hired to provide a service, which is to put on as entertaining of a show as I can muster, give them my two hours to do that performance, and make sure the people listening have a good time. I do my job, and none of the venues that hire me (many of which have done so since last summer) expect any of my tips, and have their own reasons for financing my show in their space.

Its not my role to second-guess their personal decision to hire musicians vs. trying to run a place where people play for free or for tips, or to split tips, etc. All I know is that the venues I play must be pretty happy with how I do the job I was hired to do, because they keep having me back and book me two and three months out to insure that I keep coming back on the nights that they want me to come back.

Sure, some do it out of their own pockets, because its their personal disposable income they spend on hiring musicians to play their SL club, vs. spending that money going to a movie, for example. They also don't bite off more than they can chew and book more than say, four paid shows a month (and not all with me).

And with what my fee is, they could hire me for about a four shows a month vs. the less than the cost of going to a movie on one night. With the high price of gasoline now, staying home, hiring a professional musician for $15 to entertain you and some pals in Second Life while you get to run your own club is a small price to pay for a nights worth of fun. Most of these clubs get a good percentage of that money back in tips to the venue separate from mine. Try going to the movies and asking for a portion back afterward because your attendance is helping their industry. Smile

Some of the venues are corporate-backed entities still marveling at the fact that a performer would play for two hours for what amounts to $15 plus tips US, and wouldn't dream of asking for some of that money back.

These shows get promoted by me to five different groups with notices, promoted at the concerts the night before, promoted on my website, and custom posters for the shows are made. So on top of doing the job I am hired to do that evening for two hours, there is another hour of work done for each show between promotion and graphics work when you add up all the minutes.

Bottom line, if the club is a "tip sharing club" you should have that choice up front when you book it. If the club is one that allows you to collect your own reasonable fee and keep your tips, you should have that choice as well.

Jasmine Usher

Jasmine Usher

Jasmine Usher · One more thing..

I had a little bird inform me that on Monday the same place had me scheduled at 1pm. This never was discussed by the venue to me and I am hoping it was an oversight on their part. When I make an date to on anything I follow through, providing no RL issues. I plan to IM them and ask them what the deal is.

Jas

vonjohin

Well, all I can say is somebody would have to be a real drip to put a musician through that grind. Laughing

Silas Scarborough · Re: One more thing..

ticious · Re: One more thing..

Tommy CUlt

Posting may not be rocket science ( ya know i have a RL aunt who really was a rocket scientist lol....that joke got used alot in our family LOL) - BUT...recently I posted an event for me at what I thought was 8am....of course..I stuffed up and posted at 8pm....well...I did get a few ims saying..where are you? (which meant somebody showed up LOL) - and the other thing is when you dont think it posted...and hit the 'enter' button and then hit it again...and then find you just posted 3 times ...OOPS!

AND...Tic is right..i showed up at a couple bogus shows for people - and wondered what was going on. Jasmine - look at it this way....you were so popular at getting people to the sim the first time, they just wanted to use your name and get some more the second time! Even if they are unscrupulous - it is quite a compliment Razz

Doubledown Tandino

(hope no one minds, I moved this thread to the 'need some advice' section. this thread is all great info)

Jasmine Usher

Okay I imed the hostess and she said it was a mistake. I have not gotten back inworld to follow up with her.Also I notice that there are other people that I know for a fact! are really new to the Sl music scene going to be playing there. I am debating saying something to her about the tip issue and letting the new musicians know that they could posssibly run into the same thing.

I think its logical to bring it to the table with this hostess/"management" so that we can fix this problem. Perhaps its unfixable with this group. I am unsure the only thing I am certain of is that having another ram rodded like this is not acceptable.

Jasmine Usher

Doubledown Tandino

I think that is totally the right thing to do. Bring it up. Let her know.
She doesn't have the performers viewpoint, so she may have no idea.

Me.. im usually freeflowing with advice, and perhaps moreso than asked for... but this is SL, I give the advice anyway.... In RL perhaps it may be stickin my nose in and telling someone else how to do their job... but in SL, I genuinely think most people WANT advice no matter what it is. ....the very cool thing about SL is whatever someone's goals are in SL, they're looking to improve.

So, yeah, tell em that it's not cool for any changes after the agreements, and tell em they need to be clear.... .... so either they had no idea, and now can solidify a payplan so you may even want to play there again and work with them.... ....or, they'll be jerks, and you'll move on and you know they'll fail...

vonjohin

Tommy CUlt

Von, I am very dissapointed in you Razz

(smiley used to ensure my non serious intent is clear lol) . You failed to mention the "assistant" waitpersons and bartender persons - they are also working hard too lol.

I was at a gig recently with so many tip jars on the stage, I seriously could not work out who was actually performing! I guess the next thing will be official spammer. 'Please tip the venue spammer - they are spamming hard for you - give them some linden love' - those spam jestures dont come cheap ya know '.

Sally Silvera · Re: One more thing..

ticious

Jasmine Usher

Thanks all for the feedback on how to handle this. I will be interested to hear how the venue reacts when I discuss this with them. There is no reason to be mean about it, it was what it was. The only thing now to do is move forward educate them if they are willing refer them to these forums and keep plugging on my end.

Take care and enjoy the week.

Jas

vonjohin

Notecards. Plain and simple. I just won't do a gig now without them. Upfront, in writing, when the show is, the landmark, the stream info if they want me to use their stream, the amount I get paid and any other details.

Not only does this help my "too many Grateful Dead shows" brain make sure I put the show on my calendar, but it removes any possible misunderstanding when its clearly in writing. I hesitate to call them contracts, though some venues and promoters like to call them that, but they at the least clarify all the facts far in advance.

My profile has: A NOTECARD LABELED WITH THE VENUE & SHOW DATE MUST BE GIVEN TO ME FOR ALL SHOWS FROM ALL PROMOTERS. NO EXCEPTIONS. To check days and for booking fees, schedule and more go to http://www.vonjohin.com.

It finally came to that anyway. No notecard, no gig, no exceptions, even if you've been booking me since I started last July. Otherwise, I end up double-booked, or the venue ends up double-booked, there are misunderstandings, etc., etc. Get it in writing. Smile

Fyrm Fouroux

I recently sent out a notice saying I was about to play at a venue, was about to tp over when I got an urgent IM from the venue manager telling me that I was not playing that day and that I had been expected to play the previous week on that day. They had waited for me to show and in the end had found someone to substitute for me. I said that according to my callendar it was the current day I should play. The manager was polite but adamant that I had let them down. I felt sure that was not the case, but I would have had to have accepted it, had I relied solely on the IM booking exchange about a month earlier when it was fixed up. However, as is my normal practice, I had copied and pasted the IM conversation in which the terms of the booking were laid out onto a notecard. I found the notecard within a minute and sent it to the manager. She was able to read both what she had said and what I had said. She immediately apologised profusely. It wasn't a hassle. We quickly booked a date for the following week, and parted the best of friends. But if I had not copied that IM chat onto a notecard and filed it where I knew I could find it again, I would have been in the wrong - I could not have convinced her that I had not let her down.

ticious

vonjohin

What a hassle, Fyrm. This is why I now will only accept bookings from people who will take the time to spell it all out and drop a notecard on me.

elvisduffy

Thanks for that tip Ticious. I'm going find that preference

Zak Claxton

Jasmine Usher · UPDATE

Just wanted to say that i spoke with the hostess and the owner that the venue did contact me, and they worked on revising their policy. No longer are they charging the 10% percent to musicians.

Up with Postitive conflict resolution!

Doubledown Tandino

And the society of the association of sl music organizativative representatives saves the day again!!!!!!!

Oh wait? what? what'd we change our name to?
oh yeah SLMC saves the day again.

.... ok, is there a way we can work soemthing like Justice League into the SLMC title?

Wraith Maddox

I had a similar issue with a venue owner just 2 days ago.

They said they were starting up an open mic night (3 hours - 6 slots), and had caught my act somewhere else and wanted to know if I could take one or even two of the slots for their opening night. I heartily agreed (as all I've played so far in SL are open mics and similar events). I had to tell 2 other places that i frequent that I would not be able to come as I had something lined up with this new open mic.

I then get a message the day before the open mic, with stream info, and a group tag...the usual Shtuff, and a little note saying that I could play for 80% of the tips I collected.

This thew me back a bit, and I then asked them again if they had been promoting this open mic at all, because I couldn't see it in any searches. I figured I would still go through with it this one time and see what happens (I really love the performing aspect the most, the $$$ is secondary) I also don't back out of shows, and have been brought in as last minute replacements a few times now.

Anyways..don't worry, I'm closing in on the end of my ramble here..hehe... I get to the venue more than a half hour before my scheduled time slot, with not a soul around, no-one answering IMs, nothing. I've had events be canceled before, but at least had some kind of response, but not like this. At this point, I waited there for over an hour...mostly because I wanted to give someone a piece of my mind.

I still have not had a response from these venue owners...although they have been online.

pretty hard to expect 20% of a musicians tips to go to them if this is the way they run their venue...sheesh

Oh, and these people aren't new to SL music hosting, just to clarify that.

ticious

Until I got to your last line, I was assuming these were people who did NOT run an SL music venue. Just someone who was thinking they saw some easy dough.

My advice to ANYONE, lay out the financial terms at the time the gig is booked, don't make any assumptions. If the terms change later, that's too bad for the person making the change. Pull out the chat log, hold them to the original agreement or cancel the show.

edited to add: Careful not to paint venue owners with this brush all by themselves. I had a musician no show on me yesterday. He was on line, he just didn't come to the venue. I im'd him, no answer. Two other people im'd him. I've still had no answer. I checked chat logs, no mistake on my end. Seems the least he could do was answer my im to see what was up.

*sigh*

My point being, we have people on both sides who behave unprofessionally. When you strike a deal, stick to it and expect the other party to also, no matter who's on which side of the table!

A Piece of Advice for any "new" musician in SL

Re: A Piece of Advice for any "new" musician in SL

One more thing..

Re: One more thing..

Re: One more thing..

Re: One more thing..

UPDATE