| Archive for SLMC Second Life® Music Community Forum |
| Norris Shepherd |
Describe YOUR Gear / Setup / Equipment / toysHi Everyone.I mentioned in my profile that it's been 10 years or so since i've touched a guitar. And my.... how the world has changed. One big problem is sound quality for some performers in SL. I always feels sooo bad when i see someone, can tell that they are really talented, but find it hard to listen due to poor sound quality. Difference over gigging in SL is that the musician has to be their own sound tech. I've been buying up magazines and books like crazy since i decided i wanted to perform here, to try and get up to speed. Sooooo much has changed since it took me 40 seconds to save a 10 second stereo *.wav to a file..... Blah blah blah... so what is YOUR setup? I know i'd love to know.... Just for the sake of answering my own question... (If you are looking for gear to play in SL with... DO NOT get this stuff... i bought before i researched...) Yamaha Acoustic/Electric guitar. Leem Vocal Mic Yamah EMX312Sc Powered Mixer - 12 channel (4 mono, 4 stereo) - 300 Watt powered mixer - has built in reverb - has simplified, 1 knob compression on 4 channels Computer running windows 2000 with not much in terms of audio software.. - generic sound card - bought a video card with a chip recommended by Linden Labs... makes a big difference... doesn't crash as much as before (in case you didn't know... there are very FEW video cards approved... and a LOT that are officially marked NOT COMPATIBLE... but some of these still work) - Use Winamp for streaming because... umm... Nullsoft (maker of Winamp) invented shoutcast streaming. Looked at Simplecast though.. and might try that one as well. has some nice features. Set up description. - Vocal Mic into one channel, Guitar into another. - Run 'Main Out' from mixer (1/4") to 1/8" line in on soudcard - Monitor mix from the 'monitor out' on mixer into earphones - umm that's about it.... compression pretty high up on vocals.... (remember ... idiot compression.. only one knob. yay!) other notes... - found a second monitor, and plan on running two monitors soon. - one for Second Life - other one for Lyrics / song sheets These binders are driving me crazy!!! Ask me in a few weeks how it works out if you are curious about it... If you made it this far, congratulations. 
...way over my 'goofing off' alloted time now. Take care. Norris Shepherd. |
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| Doubledown Tandino |
I get kinda dyslexic reading other people's equipment... and also I don't know what it is if Im not familiar with it... to be honest, I dont know half of the stuff I use...
(as Im typing now and without looking what I remember is: 2 technic 1200somethings 2 numark axis 9s the mixer with the cool light the blue sampler and beat machine (I love this) the thing that works like the 808 but it's not really the 808 <--not with me currently a newish korg but its not like the old korg (it kinda really sucks) <--not with me currently a late-90s moog (love it!!) <--not with me currently abelton live a im-not-shure mic the speakers that sit on these cool triangle things and this very cool frequency knob that really doesnt do anything except shows sound waves, and I like it... but its usually off.) <--not with me currently so, people, feel free to also show pics of your studios or setups. 
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| Distilled1 |
Gibson 12 string Full acoustic with a Dean Markley pick up taped in the sound hole *and/or other various acoustics and Electrics
Alesis FX8 stereo in Guitar MK-219 Condenser into a mic channel *or or a Sure BD4.1 main outs into a E-mu1010 returns back to a stereo in on the Alesis Monitor out to Acoustic Research powered monitors and/or headphones Don't use the E-mus soft/mixer as I cant seem to get it right. just set it and forgot it (one day I need to re learn it) direct into winamp/shoutcast on the soundcard all run on a Dell XPS700 running XP media and a hella nvidia card and memory. Streaming on a 9k DSL line with 1500k upstream. 
live^ recording below 
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| Tommy CUlt |
Hi All,
I have a pretty simple set up I wanted to share - and for anyone that really does not have any equipment, i think it works well. It is a Boss Micro BR digital recorder. It is a lil bigger than an ipod!! and you can pretty much do near studio quaility recordings with it. One great feature is it has an VERY good quality built in mic. It is easy to play an acoustic guaitar and sing with zero mixing required - and I am still amazed at how much this built in mic pics up. It has a dedicated guitar input, bla bla bla....google it ....but I love how simple and portable it is.
I am sure there may be downfalls with it - because I have never had anything else to compare with. I already had the Micro BR and tried it in SL. Maybe someone else has used one? Cheers - TC |
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| Zak Claxton |
I may have described this before, so if anyone gets deja vu, that's why. Here's the Zak System for SL, listed in order of signal chain.
(1) Martin D-18V acoustic guitar (1) Set of seven Hohner Marine Band Special 20 harmonicas (1) Groove Tubes GT55 vocal mic (1) Groove Tubes GT30 instrument mic (2) 25' Planet Waves XLR (mic) cables (1) Mackie 1202-VLZ mixer (1) Digidesign Mbox USB audio interface (1) Apple Macintosh G4 1.25Ghz MDD tower that I only use for streaming (1) Rogue Amoeba Nicecast broadcast software And that be all. Oh, and some guitar picks. And a glass of water. Very important. |
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| BabbleGrabble |
Without the effects rack and the software, I believe this is about as low-tech as it gets:
- Takamine acoustic guitar - a pretty decent microphone I bought ages ago (I think it's a Shure - I'm away from it at the moment), on a mic stand, aimed at a central region between my mouth and my guitar - a Digitech effects rack (also picked up ages ago) for reverb - Creative sound card on a PC running XP Pro Mic plugged into effects rack - effects rack output into sound card mic input; I'm using SAM to stream (which also allows for playing along to prerecorded tracks saved as MP3's) - SAM also saves a recording of the broadcast, which I then post to my Web site. So I am looking into getting this audio input / MIDI keyboard / guitar effects / mixer combo, a Line 6 TonePort KB37 ... anyone have any knowledge or experience with this product? |
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| Distilled1 |
Babble we need your help please describe how you set that sound card to pick up your mic input and what ever you play in SAM. as it will be the same in implecast and shoutcast I believe... I have 2 people that can't get it. | ||||
| EvaMoon |
Let's see...
I have a -Roland Juno-D keyboard (in world and out!) -Audix OM5 mic on a boom stand -iPod all feeding into a -Eurotrack MX-1604A 8-channel mixer From there I cable a stereo feed into the line-in port on my -Intel iMac w/ -Nicecast from RogueAmoeba I monitor w/headphones from the mixer and it's all piled up around the desk I'm supposed to be working from. Challenges: -Dunderheadedness. It's hard to broadcast if you can't remember to actually hit the start button. -Bad eyes. I can't seem to position things so that I can stand behind the Roland, sing into the mic and see anything more than a suggestive blur on the monitor. -Getting to my chair without tripping over all the crap Eva |
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| BabbleGrabble |
Yes, this took me a while to get working. I am not at home now, so I cannot provide a complete description, but these are the main things I remember making all the difference for me (please keep in mind that I use PC's): Now this is probably going to sound idiotic on my part, but I needed to go into the Playback options for Volume Control (Windows) and uncheck the "Mute" for Microphone and virtually everything else. Then (also in Volume Control) under Options > Properties, select the "Recording" option under "Adjust volume for" and OK. Here, make sure the first option is checked instead of Microphone (it says "Stereo Mix" on my PC here, but it is called something different at home, and I've seen other names listed on forums, but I believe it is always the first choice, not selected by default - Microphone is the default, which does not incorporate other sources). In the SAM settings, there is a place to configure the mixer (I can't remember how to get there off the top of my head - there are "Pipeline" settings accessed via the Configuration tab in order to get to the Mixer options). There is a place here in a dropdown menu to set the output for your microphone (again, I can't remember the exact phrase they use) - I set that output to go directly to my soundcard, bypassing the SAM mixer. You can see the pipeline diagram at the bottom adjust accordingly. Also in SAM, I believe the configuration of your stream must be set to use the pipeline instead of the soundcard. Sorry for the vague details - I can provide better explanations from home if any of this is seeming to be helpful in any way. I realize you are using other software, so this might be a bit obscure. |
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| BabbleGrabble |
 for me, this is probably THE hardest thing to deal with
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| Zak Claxton |
Remember when I told you that I knew you were getting it because you asked the right questions? These are also the right challenges.
The dunderheadedness and getting to chair issues will indeed get easier the more often you play. It's like the first time you load in for a club show, and you're still figuring out where to plug crap in and all that. By the time you've played a few gigs at that same club, you do it in your sleep. In a relatively short time frame, I have a set system in place -- strap on guitar, put on harmonica, put on headphones, turn on stream, turn up mixer, get in front of mic -- and the routine works for me every time now. The eye thing is a bigger problem. As a guitar player, I can get relatively close, at least enough to take a furtive glance at the Mac and read chat pretty easily. But it also removes my focus form playing, and it is something you just find a balance of as you get more gig experience.
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| Tommy CUlt |
phewwwww......well....i can say....i only have one wire lol....and that is it. Here is my set up lol....only my couch is missing lol...cause this is in my office at work.
The recorder has a load of both guitar and voice effects, as well as rythm options for almost any type of music (and is an MP3 player and can be used to play backing tracks at any speed) but I dont really use any with the acoustic guitar. 
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| Distilled1 |
Thanks Babble that was it, Yeah I run PCs to and used to have to run a set up like that but I don't anymore so I have trouble trying to remember exactly what to click in the settings .
I will hopefully have these 2-3 guys set up this weekend now! |
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| Nexeus Fatale |
Wow, mine just feels a bit low tech :-p
2x Denon S1000's 1x Denon x100 Mixer External Sound Live Sound Card PIII-M Laptop Dell Latitude 8100 (used sonly for streaming) |
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| EvaMoon |
Update re bad eyes: I got a little tip from Astrin Few. I can make the text size large in prefs. Doh! It'll still scroll off the screen before I can see it all, but at least I'll see SOME.
Now, I have a set up question. Just when I almost had this figured out, my husband said he'd like to sit in on bass. This is great, but it changes the setup. Currently I monitor from the board in headphones, but for two of us to play, we'll have to plug in a speaker to hear me and the keys and he'll have his amp too. SO. That means, I'll have one line out of the board into the computer and the other line out to a monitor. AND there will be bleed from the monitor and amp into my mic. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like it might not improve the sound. Thoughts? |
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| Zak Claxton |
That does not seem like a great idea. Here's what I recommend instead: get a cheap headphone amp/distributor. You can pick them up for well under $50. Then you, hubby, and two others can all share a headphone feed, and even control your own volume level to your individual liking. I'm referring to one of these... Behringer AMP800 MiniAMP 4-Channel Stereo Headphone Amplifier ($39.99) 
That's a pretty cheap one... and they go up in price from there. But it's a quick and easy solution. |
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| BabbleGrabble |
Cool - let us know how it goes and/or if you need any more info. |
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| Jambalaya |
My wife & I play together, so we have a more complicated setup than most - compounded by the fact that my gear is a bit cobbled together from various bits & pieces... 
We do different things depending on what we're playing, but it usually consists of separate instrument mics (1 for me, 1 for her guitar, 1 for her keys if she's playing them) and a vocal mic or two (she usually does the singing, so I often don't bother setting up a mic for my voice). I have a small collection of mics, ranging from decent to crap but a lot to choose from. (I was a live sound engineer for many years.) Usually I go with an Audix OM5 for voice, a Shure Beta 57 for the keyboard amp, and a Rode NT2 (large diaphragm condenser) for her acoustic. On my acoustic guitar I usually use an Oktava MC012 (small diaphragm condenser), and on electric I either use a Shure SM57 or an old, beat-up Sennheiser 421.
I run the mics into either outboard preamps or my Soundcraft Spirit Folio Notepad (long name for a tiny 4 ch. mixer!). I have an M-Audio Audiobuddy (a decent, cheap 2 ch. mic pre), a JoeMeek TwinQcs (a neat piece of gear, but VERY odd to use), and a battery powered Shure field preamp, and have used them all at one time or another. (I'm a freak, what can I say?) All this junk goes into an Echo Layla24, which is an 8-channel audio interface. (It does the trick, although it's also a bit weird to use now & then). This is the rig that we have currently to record at home with, which I usually do with REAPER - a very cool DAW package, kind of new on the scene but very full-featured & super stable. The cool twist: REAPER was written by the guy who wrote...WinAmp. So, among all the other features, it can also stream its output to a Shoutcast server.  It's always worked flawlessly for me - the only time I had a problem was due to my own error.
Doing it this way also allows me to record all our shows multitracked, as well as using plugins if I want. I don't usually use very many, but a little reverb is nice sometimes, and I strap a limiter across the output to prevent distortion. We monitor ourselves via the headphone output on the Layla24, which goes to a Samson 4-channel headphone amp. I'd recommend that one over the Behringer - same price point, clean sounding, and it's not Behringer.
As for SL, we have a couple other machines we use to get in the game. I usually just keep the laptop nearby so I can see the chat & the tips - once I'm onstage, I don't mess with it at all. I hope to upgrade some things one of these days, and have something a little more streamlined. It's a lot of work setting all that crap up - but hey, it works. |
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| Norris Shepherd |
GEAR REPLACED :-)Hi All. I posted the first one here... and since then I've learned so much from everyone in SL, and doing homework.I sold the big powered mixer and got this stuff with the cash. Alesis Multimix 8 track firewire. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MultiMix8FW/ Audio-Technica AT2041SP Studio Pack ( 2 condenser mics) http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AT2041sp/ Yamaha acoustic electric is plugged in, and a mic just below the soundhole (which i keep hitting with my guitar because i play standing up) Luckily for me, i was able to swap gear without paying more, and i find my sound has improved tremendously. I can't get over the difference that the condenser mic makes on vocals. Now i just have to learn how to set everything up and tweak it to get the best sound. I also have to set up the computer so i can use the firewire cable and multitrack stuff. Soooo much to learn... i love it.... |
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| RayW |
Ahhhh .. Norris .. you used my favorite online store ... And, you get yummy treats with your purchase
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| Jambalaya |
Good choices Norris! That's sort of what I have in mind for my "upgrade" - getting some kind of FW mixer, so I can have a more or less dedicated setup without needing all the odd bits & pieces. A lot easier to setup & maintain when everything is uniform.
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| Distilled1 |
I monitor myself with studio monitors and at times phones. The hardest part is balancing so the condenser does not pick it up and re send it back in a delay...I hear I sound good so I am guessing I have it set ok .. that and feedback can get bad if the gain is to much on the lg. condenser | ||||
| Nad |
I use a lot of stuff, most of which I can't pronounce. Here's a picture of me in my modest home studio mixing up a new track (NIN: Capital G). Fuel costs have sort of put a dent in my progress lately, but I'm converting to soybeans.
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| Bibi Ballinger |
OMG! I didn't know! !!!! 
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| Pocket |
I just can't get my head around it at all. I'm practically foaming at the mouth at the thought of performing in-world and I've read and re-read all the different set-ups regarding equipment but I feel as if my head's going to explode at any moment.
I don't play an instrument to the standard that I would feel comfortable with in public so I would be using backing tracks - mp3's. What would be the absolute simplest setup for me... Would it be possible to just use a really good mic and have the backing tracks playing though speakers and just have the mic pick up both my voice and the backing tracks? Here's what I have (in really simple terms.
Voice MP3's on an ipod and CD Mic Please help 
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| Distilled1 |
Pocket your best bet is on PC win amp and Shoutcast using soundcard imput and singing over the mp3 (I have 2 here in the house that do that) issue is setting the shoutcast  it can be a pain..
Mac is nice cast and it works the same to a point. trying to do speakers into the mic your vocals will over power everything you play you need to get that out and in the mix many of us will hep you try let me know if you8 see me in worls and want to test it out... Distiled1 Rush and if you have a PC I wil try to get your stuff started out at least ...
Sla'nte! |
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| Doubledown Tandino |
ahhh Nad, I see you got a flux capacitor! nice one. | ||||
| Pocket |
Hiya Distilled1 Well, I'm going to download Winamp & Shoutcast.....and kinda see what happens from there and I'll probably take you up on your very kind offer of help...which I desperately need. But I suppose that downloading both those programs is the first step I have to take. I'll let you know how that goes...(I'm sure you're glad to hear that.. )
thanks so much for helping me out like this |
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| Silas Scarborough |
Zak gave a tip for a Behringer headphone amplifier and I'll second that. Doesn't cost much, works well, easy to set up.
Pocket, you won't like this answer but the easiest way to get streaming is to get an Apple computer. Talk to people who use Nicecast for Apple vs Simplecast (or similar) on a PC and you will immediately see the difference. Every time I have talked to someone with a streaming problem, that person has been using a PC and loads use Nicecast with nary a problem. PC soundcards are a Rube Goldbergian nightmare. A fundamental difference between Apple and PC as sound platforms is that the former uses USB or Firewire for the audio interface and is therefore not dependent on some third-party claptrap to get you connected. Note: All computers suck but some suck less. I work on them all the way up to 20-megaton IBM z9 processors. I can tell you true that you won't find one that doesn't suck but Apples suck less and in the long-run are cheaper due to longevity and reliability than any in my experience. Short answer: Get an Apple and build from there. |
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| vonjohin |
I have two setups:
Mobile: When I travel and want to still do my shows, I bring two large diaphragm condenser microphones (The Violet Amethyst Vintage and The Violet Globe) with me, and plug them directly into a Digidesign MBox2, which plugs into my 2.4GHz MacBook Pro via USB. I put them on stands, and set it up in my hotel room, etc. I always try to use a wired Internet connection. Home Studio At home I use the same two Violet microphones (they sound amazing), plugged into a couple of Focusrite Platinum Pentas for limiting/compression, then direct into a Digidesign 002R. That is plugged into a Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz with 5GB RAM, 256VRAM, and a sexy 30" Apple Cinema Display feeding one video channel, and a ceiling-mounted InFocus projector from the other, for those occasions I feel like seeing my avatar stand about 3ft tall on a 6 ft screen.
Whether at home or on the road, I stream out using Nicecast, which also archives every show. And I don't monitor my shows when playing. No headphones to make my head sweat, no speakers on to hear my guitar/vocal. I set the levels, read the meters, if they are reading fine, then I know they are sounding fine and I get on with the show. I tried wearing headphones, it was just uncomfortable for me, especially considering I play at least two hours every show, and typically about 2.5 hours and don't take a break. If the meters are showing me in the zone, not peaking, then I don't need to hear me. That's my preference. I mike my Gibson J200, Gibson Hound Dog Dobro and Gibson J160E guitars, I don't plug them in. They sound so much better properly mic'd and the archived shows tell me I'm doing just fine with the setup. That's the whole setup. I don't use loopers, drum machines, synths, or any software that could make me crash, gave up trying to use any of my plugins in Nicecast because it makes things less stable. I've tried, I'm blessed with a collection of some of the best plugins ever made out there, but SL is shaky enough without adding that element to it. On my screen is SL, an open folder with lyrics if I need them, and Nicecast. That's all. Its just my voice howling at The Globe microphone, and my guitar, typically my J200, crying at the Amethyst Vintage microphone, powered by a large glass of sweet tea, ice cold Coke, or on rare occasions, a little sumpin' sumpin extra in my glass to make me testify. So far, its been a good mix. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
The Digidesign 002r claims 8 inputs but I only see four as it looks like four 1/4-inch / XLR pairs rather than eight discrete inputs. It looks like a very well-made device but that limitation would be a deal-breaker for me.
I use a Presonus Firestudio Project but the routing software is, at best, amusing. However, it has eight simultaneous inputs and I frequently use four of them in gigs due to some bizarro stuff playing keys and guitar at the same time. The other inputs are currently going to other guitars and equipment that I use when I'm recording. I've also used a Focusrite Saffire and this was good for simultaneous two-channel input but the routing software is less than intuitive even if highly capable. I had some very strange outages from the device but most the time it was adequate. An excellent starter interface is the TASCAM US-122 (more current mdels are available) for stereo input over USB. I used one for years and never had a problem with it plus they're engineered rock-solid, totally indestructible. This one would be suitable for someone running the output from a mixer into the computer but wouldn't be suitable for advanced recording. What other interfaces are people using? |
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| hexx |
Presonus Inspire 1394 module and Behringer XENYX 1202 FX mixer. And seriously thinking of upgrading my soundcard (currently a very basic Soundblaster Audigy). | ||||
| Sanity Inn |
I am basically using my rack as a live set up for now, but with patch bay and a few tweeks , ready to record also ,,,
If picture appears, list will be in order as seen ART SP 4X4 ................................ 8 plug power conditioner Sebatron VMP 2000e VU ............... dual channel tube mic pre ( www.sebatron.com ) RME ADI 8 DS pro .................... 8 channel AD/DA convertor ( studio use with RME DSP9256 card) TC Helicon Voiceworks Plus .........harmonizer ( with harmonycontrol midi controller ) Lexicon LXP-1 .....................................reverb ( final bus mix ) Yamaha SPX50D processor ........ ( guitar effect ) dbx-166 .................................................dual compressor Furman 4X4 mixer ............................. final stage for added gain, and heaphone monito to hear final mix Aphex Aurel Exciter type C ........... processor Neutrik.........................................................48 1/4" point patch bay Spirit Folio Notepad ...............................10 channel mixer Sennheiser MD 421-U-5.................... Vocals Sennheiser HD 280 pro ........................headphones Takamine 12 string cut away .......... Roland DR 5 ................................................. drum machine Korg N5 ....................................................... keyboard work PC with X Fi 24 bit card to stream thru 2X Art Levelar compressors, ( not in use ) AKG C3000B mic ..............................( not in use ) Sure SM 58 mic .............................( not in use ) DAW with Samplitude pro and UAD-1 card ( used to record ) ATC SCM 20-2 pro near field studio monitors Old '72 Gibson Marauder .... 6 string electric ( warperd neck on low E, not in use ) not sure if anyone wants to know the chain set up for vox and guit, but let me know " Logic rules, emotion wins " 
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| vonjohin |
You quit looking too soon at the 002R. 
I get 18 inputs into my 002R. I've recorded 18 discrete channels simultaneously into Pro Tools and other applications with my 002R. I don't understand what you mean unless you just don't understand how the thing actually works. I get 8 channels via ADAT lightpipe, for which I use the Octopre LE to open up, plus it has 8 discrete channels, four of which are XLR, and then I get two more channels via the stereo S/PDIF input. Should I so desire I could easily sum 18 channels into a SL concert using the 002R. God forbid I ever try. 
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| Silas Scarborough |
Discrete channels are all that matter to me -I wasn't clear as to whether the 1/4-inch / XLR pairs on the back were discrete channels and I hear you that they are but how does that play with only four volume controls on the front panel. You might want to compare it to a Presonus Firestudio Project. I'm not all that blown away by it but it's got 8 combination 1/4-inch/XLR plugs on the front panel with volume controls and level LEDs for all of them. (There's more but that's the important stuff for me) Why not run 18 channels into SL. Dream big! |
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| vonjohin |
I get my control from the devices plugged into those inputs. Microphone pre-amps or even an instrument's built in outputs. My Korg digital piano has enough power output on its own to not require using one of the four volume knobs. I get another 8 volume knobs from my Octopre plugged into the ADAT. All of my 14 other inputs are preceded in the signal path by a microphone pre-amp of some kind. I need phantom power ability on all 18 inputs for the high-quality condenser microphones I run when I do a full-on session in my studio. Everything in my studio, all of the I/O of my devices, are patched and labeled for specific channels on the 002R, with snakes running to the beginning of the signal path input. I imagine that your setup isn't quite as complex, but you also likely don't work in the pro audio industry in real life. I do.
The Presonus also does not run Pro Tools. I do professional work and need Pro Tools for professional studio compatibility in production. I can run Pro Tools and everyone else's software with the 002R, and I can't do that with the Presonus or other sound cards. If you are not doing professional audio work that requires Pro Tools, then stick with the prosumer audio devices like the Firestudio Project. Its a fine device and worth the money. Me, I need Pro Tools. It also comes down to how I work when I am alone in the studio. How often do you employ all eight inputs at once when you are recording alone? I rarely use more than three. Two guitar mics and a vocal mic. That's well within the four.
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| Silas Scarborough |
1 - Analog from guitar 2 - Analog from synth from guitar 3 - Analog from synth module chained from guitar synth 4 - Mikes mixed down to one channel 5 - Analog from sound module from keyboard controller The others are just for convenience. I still don't see mention of the four volume controls on front. I don't get why it's good to have eight inputs but only four volume controls. Are they switchable to which input they control? Yes, ProTools is compelling but I need to separate the software argument from the hardware as the quality of the software makes no difference if the hardware isn't sufficient to get it done. |
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| vonjohin |
There are lots of great options, including the Presonus, if you want, need and require to go direct without anything else in the front end. For what you do, it sounds like you've got the setup that works for you. You don't actually need the volume knobs for some of the devices you are running, except to pump up the gain higher than you can likely record at anyway. For microphones, yes, they are great. Without the aid of mic-pre amps, you can do one things that I cannot do, power 8 microphones with your device to act as a mixer. You can also add another 8 more ADAT inputs than I can. No doubt, that has the 002 beat in input count.
I don't need more than four knobs, which control the XLR inputs on the 002, because I have devices running to them which have their own volume controls on them and work at sufficient volume as to insure that the levels are adequate for recording. I set my levels in Pro Tools or my recording software, when recording. My setup also includes stereo outputs from the Roland guitar synth, and from the Korg digital piano but I don't need to use them on an input with the volume control, they have their own volume controls. Levels are controlled in software and by the device plugged into them if direct, OR in my case, most all devices run through pre-amps, tube and solid state, which make the discussion moot. I want a line-level input for my mic-pres, since they control the volume level. Look, I don't want to argue about which is better. Its silly. I just wanted to point out that the Digi 002 has 18 total discrete inputs, when you thought it didn't, in case you wanted to know that or were basing your opinion on information you had incorrect. Its not a "Pro Tools vs _______" discussion. One can't separate the hardware from software issue if you want and need Pro Tools. Since I can get 18 inputs into this device without any issues, and run full 18 inputs discretely for recording sessions, the hardware is absolutely sufficient to do my job. And if I didn't need or want to run Pro Tools, I would absolutely consider the Presonus.
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| Silas Scarborough |
Nope, not arguing for the sake of spinning words. I'm looking at Digidesign 002r (apparently not in production anymore) and MOTU 828 MKIII. The reason is that the routing software for the Presonus is pretty weak and I've got an intermittent audio bug that was not corrected by a clean install of Leopard. It's less frequent than previously but it's not gone. I don't have conclusive proof that the Firecontrol software is the perpetrator or I'd be in a bigger hurry to drop another $1000 into my kit.
For capability, MOTU and Digi look roughly equivalent and the tie-breaker comes with ProTools for an easy win by Digi. MOTU has got a cool display on the front panel but that doesn't quite swing the balance back. It appears that the Digi 002r and/or ProTools requires a dongle. Did I get that right? |
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| vonjohin |
No, the hardware IS THE DONGLE. You can't use the Pro Tools software if the hardware is not present. Of course you can't use any software if the hardware is not present.
Before we get further I should point out that the 002 and 002 do NOT have the separate software mixer application thing you are used to with the Presonus or even with a MOTU box. It comes with Pro Tools LE software. You may be better off with MOTU and avoiding Pro Tools if you don't need it for recording I used to use a 2408 PCI424 from MOTU, which was wonderful (but ZERO volume knobs, which you wouldn't like much), and also had a MOTU 828MKII. The 828 MKII was buggy. It had to go back for repair once, even. The sound quality was good on the MOTU but when I A/B'd recordings I'd done on the MOTU vs the Digidesign hardware, I heard a sparkle and quality I liked better in the Digidesign, plus my pro studio friends, authors, video producing partners and everybody else I work with in real life could finally stop harping on me to get Pro Tools. My 002 sounds amazing, its solid in my system, but it too is NOT ready for Leopard, though an update should be coming anytime now that they have released the version for Pro Tools HD.
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| Silas Scarborough |
Ack...not ready for Leopard. Crunch.
Everything I'm hearing from you and everything I'm reading says the 002r is the one. Yes, recording is important. I appreciate the information and it has been helpful. |
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| vonjohin |
Its coming, hang tight. I think the Core Audio standalone drivers for Tiger are OK, its trying to use the Pro Tools software that is a No-no. When I went to Cincinnati earlier this month, I didn't want to cancel my shows, so I did them from the 26th floor of the Hilton in my hotel room. I successfully used the MBox2 with Leopard, but I didn't install Pro Tools LE into the MacBook Pro, I only stalled the stand-alone Core-Audio drivers for Tiger and the show came off without a hitch.
And in my opinion, save money and find a deal on or a used 002R, because the 003R has barely any new real features, other than like two headphone jacks, etc. I have seen used 002Rs sell for $500 on Craigslist.
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| PhoeNix |
My rig for SL live is very simple...
PC base: Shure SM58 Korg Stage Piano SP200 Behringer UB1002FX Simplecast So far so good! I initially tried using a compressor (a TL Fatman which I use for RL gigs), but the hiss and hums are amplified in the final mix... not good! So I took that out of the loop and now all's quiet'er without it.
Mic technique is slightly different from RL also... Whereas you have to literally kiss the uni-di/dynamic mic in real world gigs, I find that I don't need to do that on my SL set up - and so in this way, I control the dynamics and loudness of my vocals by moving closer or away from the mic as and when I need to. By not "kissing" the mic, it's also less poppy or boomy. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
This really surprised me! I'm not any kind of a singer but wouldn't you get an improvement in going from an SM58 to a condensor mike with a pop screen? Perhaps this is a stupid question that would be obvious to a real singer and I'm not even remotely trying to say you need improvement. I haven't seen your show yet but all the talk I see says I should as soon as possible
In part I'm curious as one of these days my ex- and I will figure out a way to pull off some gigs and she needs to really rip into mike so I'm wondering if she would likely blow holes in a condensor mike at home. She's never used anything but an SM58 and that goes back twenty years. The other part is because I'm just nosy! |
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| PhoeNix |
It's a live set up I have, used also to perform in RL. And of course in RL, I look far far nicer without a pop-shield growth out of my face
Seriously, it sounds great to my ears, not thin or sharp which a condenser can give. The SM58 gives my voice the warmth and body that a condenser can take away. And it's very live, which is what I aim for. This basic set up works in RW. I feel playing on SL wouldn't be any different. As for not blowing the speakers... it's really just a matter of adjusting your distance to the mic, turning away on peak (another RL mic teckniq) and monitoring the streaming levels. I do however cover my SM58 with a bright red foam case/glove which they only use in the 70s. Maybe that helps too?
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| Silas Scarborough |
Yep, that's we always did with the SM58's as well. The reason for the concern is she hasn't ever used anything else. I think what I'll do is as you've done, let her try it both ways and let her ears decide which she thinks does most justice to how she wants to sound. I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks! |
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| Distilled1 |
SM58s are great for live vocals, I use to use one in SL live.
I now use a condenser and find it gives a ton more warmth, its what we use to record vocals, and I find it easier to preform with as I don't have to get as loud, but its touchy and will pick up the neighbors car door even! so all those things like the kids coming in the room/home, a tv in the other room, can all get heard LOL. and at times it takes a lot of level adjusting and really requires mic technique, listen to me and you will see LOL I am always all over the place level wise! but on the other hand with an acoustic it picks that up as well giving a little more dimention to it than just plugged DI into the mixer (kind of like recording a clean and effected line on the guitar to have more to play with in mix down). think my next set I am going to try the 58 again and record and see what I get. |
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| RayW |
I ditto the condenser, Distilled. I have a Rode NT1000 and love it!
I had such issues with mic-ing a 12-string, that I went and bought an Ovation Electric/Acoustic and LOVE that. Change the tone? Slide the EQ this way or that, and you have a new sound. I think I covered my gear earlier. The only difference is the addition of a dual compressor on the Aux bus, back into the main. Have the vocal, guitar, and backing-track feed on the aux. Next, will reroute that into a Looper, back to the main ... going to try some electro-wizardry on some songs. 2 PCs --- Brand NEW Dell is now my SimpleCast broadcaster to the stream relay (old one died, sort of). Other is my Production machine that also runs SL when I'm on stage (so I can see the audience). The only other issue that came up, came up last night ... I smelled hot electrical stuff. I think I need to run my power from two separate outlets. The area is set for 100 amps. But, not out of one outlet
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| PhoeNix |
I do use an old Rode condenser in my soundproofed garage studio for recording purpose, mainly vocals, but for my SL/RL live set up, a uni-di dynamic mic is defo far better in keeping background incidental noises to the minimum, which is what I need as I perform from my PC based home office situated by a main road (my studio is not connected to the internet wireless or otherwise... another story ).
I did try using a compressor to fatten and flatten the levels somewhat, but it has added an extra signal to the mix and created unwanted hiss... not to mention affecting the dynamics of my live sound, which has a lot of peaks and lows. So that's gone. I guess I'm of the school that if it ain't broke don't fix it. The live set works and is not very expensive to assemble either. I hadn't bought anything new for my rig. I've long since stopped buying up all the shops' recording toys and instruments (I actually sold most of my hardware sound modules and samplers) as I wanted to go back to the basic of just voice and piano, and some strings... My next solo releases will be mostly live, earthy and organic... that's my plan ... again another story... there I go.. off tangent again!
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| RayW |
Well, from what I heard, you have a great plan!
You sounded great! |
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| Silas Scarborough |
Not a tangent at all - the discussion is most interesting. | ||||
| elvisduffy |
Computer 1 - Has my ProTools TDM Mix3 system. It's an old desktop Mac G4 I've got a session that has a mix that works. Ampfarm gives the electric guitar a little better sound. This computer basically serves as an audio mixer. I send a couple of (XLR) Aux Outs to:
Computer 2 - Mbox going into a Macbook Pro. Nicecast hears the MBox. SL runs on the same computer. It crashes a fair bit during shows. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
This one absolutely hates Digidesign and won't buy so much as paperclip from them from here on out. I got that Digidesign 003r that was under discussion some while back and this was a huge mistake as Pro Tools LE is not compatible with Leopard 10.5.2. I don't mean just a little glitch here and there. It can't be used on my system and the Digidesign went back into the box shortly after setting it up.
Digidesign claims they have been working on quality testing Pro Tools LE and they've been saying this for quite a long time. Note their high-end Pro Tools product works just fine and Leopard was released in I believe it was December. Advance copies go out to major software vendors long ahead of that so they can be ready for big releases. So they've got about six months and probably as much as a year to fix the problems that exist in the low-end version of the product. Makes sense right...it should be harder to fix the lightweight software vs the heavy, correct? Yesterday Digidesign released a product called "Transfuser" and the product is an extension for the high-end product. Given the evidence, there's little reason to believe they're doing anything with Pro Tools LE at all. They haven't even given a date as to when they think it might work. So I'm down $1200 and not a thing to show for it. I'm debating what to do with it as sure as hell the same thing will happen when there's a next significant upgrade to the O.S. and no way will I inhibit the evolution of my machine because their programmers are too incompetent to keep up. (Actually, it may not be so much programmer incompetence as management greed given that their priorities are way out of whack if they're working on goodies for the high-end Pro Tools product rather than correcting the problem that makes Pro Tools LE virtually useless.) At first it was just bad customer support but yesterday's release of Transfuser moved it to flat-out insulting. None of this is 'hype' - check my facts if you don't believe me and you'd be well-advised to do that before you EVER consider getting anything from this company. |
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| PhoeNix |
Hey Ray, Thanks!
I've yet to catch you... will try to one of these weekends from a hotel room as I'm away mostly til end of June... Look forward to seeing you soon!
Thanks also Silas... ditto for yours and ex shows... look forward to catching you guys!
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| Alazarin |
Ok... I'll join the gearhead chat. here goes:
1) Instruments.... Roland Jupiter-6 w/Kenton MIDI board Roland Fantom FA-76 w/vintage synth expansion Custom Flying-V w/Kahler Flyer trem & Seymour Duncan p/u Epiphone Explorer w/Schaller trem Generic thru-neck Les Paul clone Kimbara electroacoustic guitar Cayuela #25 spanish guitar [made in Seville, Spain] 2) Rack... Alesis 3630 Compressor Samson PL1602 Rack Mixer 2X ART Alpha Multiverb FX Roland JV-1080 w/Orchestral expansion E-MU Audity 2000 MOTU MIDI Timepiece [parallel port version] Roland SPA-240 power amp 3) Studio... Self-made 3.4gHz P-4D computer w/'volume-license' XP-Pro Cubase 4 Marian Marc8 MIDI Various soft synths & plugins 4) Live... Dell Inspirion 6400 dual-core laptop w/XP-home Cubase 4 M-Audio Firewire Audiophile oh yeah... a pair of Audio Technica MB4000C mics. Then again I don't sing so I only use 'em for announcements or miking up acoustic instruments. That's the current snapshot. It changes from time to time as I add and drop bits 'n' pieces. Whoops... left out the mixing desk: Behringer Xenyx 2442FX |
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| Slim Warrior |
My studio set up is.
Mac Pro Rode NT1A SE2200 TC Helicon ( Voice works) Edirol UA25 Focusrite Saffire Logic Pro Garageband Instruments: Roland Fantom X8 Celviano Piano (Casio) Alto Sax Flute (Yamaha 6 string Fender 12 string Fender Strat) I play NONE of the guitars with any skill really. I do use them for playing odd notes that I then totally change and mess about with to get certain sounds. Various monitors but I am seriously looking at some JBL studio monitors (LSR4300 Series) they look pretty good for a small studio environment. I have a bunch of Acoustic foam placed strategically around the room and in a small vocal booth for recording. I have tons of plugins. My Fav being Spectrasonics 'Atmosphere' and a whole bunch of freebies collected over the years. |
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| Zak Claxton |
The JBL LSR4300's are EXCELLENT monitors. You really can't go wrong with them. | ||||
| Slim Warrior |
Thanks Zak,
There are SO many monitors to choose from and I LOVE shopping for studio stuff, but looking at so many has taken me a long time and its good to hear you think they are good.. |
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| Zak Claxton |
I really can't say enough good things about them. Monitors are a very personal choice, and what sounds great to me might not be right for you.
If you're interested in shopping around, I'd also take a look at the ADAM A7 and possibly the Dynaudio BM5A. But the LSR Series is great, and if I had those and no other choices in monitors, i'd be happy.
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| Alazarin |
Oh yes, monitors... I use a pair of Tannoy Reveals for my studio. Nothing fantastic but they do the job. And more importantly I could afford them. I was going to buy a pair of Yamaha NS-10m's at the time but was warned off them as they apparently had a tendency to blow their tweeters which were a bit on the pricey side to replace.
For live work I have a pair of PA bins I made with 15" & 12" speakers & a pair of HH bullets. |
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| Kim Seifert |
Current gear in use:
Vocopro cd player for backing tracks Alesis Multimix 8USB Mixer Cheapo headphones for monitoring - I blow them out at the rate of about one pair every couple of months Shure SM-58 Microphone Soundblaster Platinum Xi-Fi Soundcard Winamp with Shoutcast plugin Gear not in use: Fender 6 string acoustic - cheapo starter Ibanez Exotic Wood series acoustic-electric (level 30 - quilted mahogany top) - this is what I will use in-world soon Yamaha PSR-170 keyboard Peavey 12 channel mixer Shopping for: A large diaphragm mic for vocals - this is what I need help with. I want a really good vocal mic but am not interested in spending over $500 for it. I've been reading all sorts of reviews, etc. but I am seriously lost and confused over the issue. Can anyone point me in the right direction? |
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| Zak Claxton |
Kimmie, I'm going to recommend something. Your SM58 is a dynamic mic. Nothing wrong with that, but you're going to find that the sensitivity and articulation of a condenser mic is going to be a VERY different response, one you may or may not like. Nearly all studio vocal mics (all large diaphragms) are condensers. It's super important for you to actually try these mics out with YOUR voice, because what you hear from others just won't apply to how it responds to your pipes. In your under $500 range, I have a few recommendations. - Studio Projects C3 - Groove Tubes GT-50 - Rode NT2 That's a start... there are plenty of others. You can also find some sale pricing on some fantastic mics, like the Blue Baby Bottle. Keep your eyes open for those deals.
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| Zak Claxton |
Oh, one other thing to keep in mind: large diaphragm condenser mics require an external power source. As long as your mixer has "Phantom Power" (usually +48V), you're all set.
WARNING: never turn on phantom power when you're using a dynamic mic like an SM58. It can (not necessarily but can) toast the mic's electronics. |
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| Slim Warrior |
I have to say I love my Rode NT1-A. I have a fairly soft voice and it makes my vocals a lot warmer. The SE2200 I have, I like less, it makes my voice a lot harsher both on recording and live.
Rode http://www.rodemic.com/microphones.php SE Eletronics http://www.seelectronics.com/sE2200a.html |
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| Zak Claxton |
I am very fortunate in the mic department. Here at the Zak Studio, I have a couple of very workable mics (Groove Tubes Gt-57 for voice, GT-30 for guitar), but in the studio where I'm doing my album, here is my vocal mic:
The Soundelux ELUX 251... yours for only $5000. That's like $L1,350,000!
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| BabbleGrabble |
Looks an awful lot like a dildo ... is it just me? | ||||
| Zak Claxton |
If you heard it, you'd be happy to have that dildo as close to your mouth as possible. Okay, I'll shut up now.
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| BabbleGrabble |
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| Slim Warrior |
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| Slim Warrior |
Deleted as I double posted... | ||||
| BabbleGrabble |
I'm gonna have to side with Slimmie on this one, Zak ... is right.
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| Zak Claxton |
Alright, fine. Sheesh!
But it is a REALLY nice vocal mic, maybe the best one I've ever used, and I've used 'em all. I'd rather use the ELUX than a U87, or a C12, or any number of other superb mics. And it does NOT look like a dildo, ya perv.
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| BabbleGrabble |
Fair enough - the microphone had better be amazing at that price, but I still think it looks like what it looks like ... all this talk about diaphragms and phantom power has my brain a bit distracted methinks. | ||||
| BabbleGrabble |
Also, did I mention that it's really freakin' hot today? | ||||
| Zak Claxton |
I'm so glad I live near the beach, I can't even tell ya. It's nasty hot. | ||||
| elvisduffy |
I've heard good stuff bout that Soundelux. I'll have to keep limpin' along with a U87.
Did you buy it retail? Or did you have an insider deal? Just curious. I bought the Neumann by walking into Guitar Center and coughin' up the $. They liked me there til I moved closer to another store. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
My operatic voice would not be coming through, dare I say, shining through without the noble assistance of a Marshall MXL 2003 condensor mike. It's about $150 at Musician's Friend so it's really not much more than an SM58.
Don't get nuts over Phantom power. There's usually a switch on any credible mixer or audio interface that indicates phantom power on/off. Condensor mikes need it and dynamic mikes don't. Zak's right about try before you buy and a good place to do that is Guitar Center as they'll always match any price you find online. |
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| Soundcircel Flanagan |
Not having a mic at all *lmao*
Anyway my set up is : 3 PC's 3 guitars ( all Ibanez, including the Jem and a semi-acoustic and bass ) M-Audio Keystation. Soundcards : Guillemote Isis M-Audio Fast track USB M-Audio Delta 66 I used to switch a lot with soundcards, and got in trouble with the drivers. Windows has a weird way of handeling drivers, but i found a great solution http://www.asio4all.com/ A free asio driver that is damn good i.m.h.o. Now i can pick the card i want without having to troubleshoot a lot *lol* Bunch of VST instruments and stuff including the Guitar Rig. this is probally my biggest joy, playing with G.R. |
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| Alazarin |
Yeh, I've been looking at the ASIO4ALL drivers recently as the official drivers for my Marian Marc8 MIDI are incompatible with Cubase 4.1x are crackly and flakey.
Guitar Rig? Do you mean the Native Instruments software thingy? It looks fine for studio work but for live work that would basically mean having a dedicated computer for guitar FX and processing. I suppose it would work but a good dedicated guitar FX unit prolly makes better sense for live work at this point of time. I use a Boss GT-6. It's no great shakes but it does the job. I had an ART SGX-2000 Express & X-15 floor controller for years before that. Built like a tank and sounded great, but a helluva of a lotta stuff to lug around to gigs and rehearsals on public transport seeing how I don't have a car. So I sold it and bought the Boss unit which is more compact and portable. If I was richer I would have kept the ART SGX-2000 Express. I have Win-XP Pro on all my computers and I plucked up the courage to install service pack 3 on most of them except my main work computer. Last time I updated anything (attempted update to Cubase 4.1) my entire system got trashed and it took me 3 full days to get it all back in order. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
The biggest problem with Guitar Rig is that you can't change it in the middle of a tune. There's a RigKontrol stomp box that gives some control but I never had any luck with it and finally abandoned it. I tried a Line6 for a while but it is a total pain in the ass and I've got a Boss GT-10 on the way now. [begin rant]And ProTools LE ***STILL*** doesn't work. Digidesign sucks massive boulders. If that's pro support, sign me up with the amateurs any old time. You don't have to dedicate a computer to using Guitar Rig although it will suck up quite a bit of juice but you certainly do have to dedicate one for ProTools, partly because of the incompetence of the support team and also because of the shabby way it's implemented. Their solution to new functions in Leopard that conflict with their command keys: turn them off. Brilliant. I'm the fool, tho, as I might just as well have flushed $1200 down the toilet.[/rant] |
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| Alazarin |
You ought to take a peek in at the Steinberg Cubase forums sometime. The bitching there is right off the scale. Alot of it is justified too given the way Steinberg stonewall people. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
I check out the Digi User group regularly and there's ferocious bitching in there. The only response from Digi on the problem is to back-level the operating system. Right, downgrade every product I've got. To add insult to injury, they've just released a new product for their Pro Tools high-end product. In short, they aren't doing a damn thing to fix it. |
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| Soundcircel Flanagan |
well thats why i use 3 pc's
i kinda write songs to the sounds i use.... with another fx unit its hard to get the same sounds. |
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| elvisduffy |
Sound, are you a Holdsworth fan at all. Your unusual attack reminds me of some of Allan's non-typical tone. | ||||
| Soundcircel Flanagan |
Elvis...
I love all musicians that are trying to do something different. Course you all know i am a big Vai Nerd. My fav. song is not For the Love of God ( well it is cause it is a kick ass song ) but when it comes to "how can you use a guitar sound differently" my favourite one is The Riddle. there is this part where he plays a normal melody, repeats it a few times and each time with a different EVENTIDE sound, it sounds like an out of space synth !!! ( /me checking his wallet to see when he is ritch enough to buy an Eventide ) I love that shit !!! Same as Ballerina, only guitars there, but it sounds like a sort of Music Box...... Totally Awesome !!!!!!!!!! I also loved Abracadabra, the guitar sound is superb there..... I try to achieve those sounds, combine them, experiment and find new ones... |
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| Soundcircel Flanagan |
Forget to answer this one.... Totally Holdsworth fan !!! |
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| Silas Scarborough |
Sorry I don't have the link just now but there's an interview with Vai on YouTube and he talks about his first or very early session with Zappa. It's very cool and the punchline will have you falling out of your chair laughing. Zappa was one amazing man and anyone who missed the "Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar" tour missed one of the hardest-rockin' shows that ever came down the road. He absolutely blew the walls down!!!! | ||||
| hexx |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cplMM3d_Q
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| Soundcircel Flanagan |
going to check it now
Thanks for posting this
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| Fyrm Fouroux |
How do you count 7/8? Is it 1,2,3,4; 5,6,7 Or would you do: 1,2,3; 4,5,6; 7 Although theoretically possible, I find this one difficult to feel: 1,2; 3,4; 5,6; 7
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| Zak Claxton |
Old musician's secret: never count more than 4. A 7/8 either goes 1,2,3,4; 1,2,3 or 1,2,3; 1,2,3,4. |
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| Fyrm Fouroux |
I agree with you 100%, Zak. And it thus leaves me somewhat underwhelmed about that interview |
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| Soundcircel Flanagan |
OMG cool Video !!!!!!!!!!!
thats what i love about Frank, he pushed his musicians really to the limits. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
The video is plugging the Berklee School of Music but Zappa did not go there and, in fact, never really attended anywhere. He went to CCM (Cincinnati Conservatory of Music) but dropped out after a relatively short time as he had more important things to do, like being Zappa. (It might be Cincinnati's College Conservatory of Music. Who knows...everyone just called it CCM) |
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| Zak Claxton |
I went to Berklee for a year.
1985. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
There's an interesting blurb on the Berklee web site from a professor of bass. He said he gets all kinds of bass players coming to him and when he first meets them they can do all the flashy stuff that he called 'music store jams' but what he aims to do is teach them how to do what bass players really do. Education, in any field, is a mixed blessing as, unless you're an extremely strong-willed individual, it is almost impossible to learn something from someone else without also adopting, to some extent, that person's style. I don't mean to go too far with this. Zak, if you don't mind my asking, why did you bail after a year? (None of yer damn bizness is a perfectly fine response
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| Zak Claxton |
Ran outta money. I ended up getting my bachelor's in music from a Cal State school that gave me great instruction and that (more importantly) I could afford. I got some help from the folks but also worked my way through. But Berklee was a great environment, and I had a guitar in my hands 6-7 hours per day. |
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| Silas Scarborough |
Thanks. I don't know why Zappa dropped out of CCM but I bet if there's an answer on the Web somewhere then it'll be so cryptic that no-one will be able to decipher it. | ||||
| hexx |
*LOLz* you already gave the answer to that question yourself: "he had more important things to do, like being Zappa" - in all its cozmic simplicity, that is most likely spot on! |
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| Silas Scarborough |
I'm sure you already know this but I'm not being cynical when I question the value of education, particularly in any artistic endeavour, and also, to some extent, concentrating overmuch on cover tunes as avoiding becoming one's teacher is quite a significant obstacle. I really am interested in Zappa's reasoning in dropping out of CCM but I suspect the answer is a lot less artsy-fartsy than I imagine. Like Zak, he prob'ly ran out of money
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