Help with sound quality

EvaMoon · Help with sound quality

For all the time I've been playing music in SL my sound has been fairly good - I've received no complaints and when I recorded and listened, it seemed fine. But suddenly just a couple weeks ago I started getting complaints that I was too hot and distorting. I've dropped and dropped and dropped levels - probably close to 50%. I can hardly hear my backing tracks when I sing. Some people say I sound fine, some say I'm distorting. I have NO idea what changed. One host told me I sounded fine on the stream outside SL while people in world were saying I was distorted.

This is driving me nuts and affecting my performance. I would love to have a good private sound session and either figure out what changed or find a new set up that will let me sound good and still be able to hear.

Is someone with good ears and a stream willing to help me out?

Thanks!

Eva

EvaMoon

Oh, btw,

I'm on a Mac, using Nicecast. I have all my inputs going into a mixer. I run the left output channel into my computer and the right input channel into a monitor so I can in theory control the levels separately. I don't get stereo in world, but I don't imagine that's a huge issue for most users.

Nad

Eva, have a look at this:

http://slmc.myfastforum.org/about1345.html

that plist file gets corrupted from time to time and causes all sorts a havok.

Save a copy of the file somewhere else, then delete it from where it lives and give it a try. If it fixes yer prob then there you go, if not just put the original file back into place.

EvaMoon

Thanks! I'll try that too.

Norris Shepherd

hey Eva. Problem with asking a lot of people... is most people don't realise when something is peaking/distorting/sounding bad... so they might all hear, and half just don't know the difference. I've learned to only ask people whose ears i trust now.

I can give a listen if you want (if you trust my ears)... but i know nothing about Macs. Best way to test is to listen to the actual stream yourself, as opposed to listening to a recording of yourself on your computer.

Ummm.. you can send me an IM if you see me online, and I'll give a listen if you'd like.

EvaMoon

Hexx was SO kind and patient as to spend quite a lot of time working with me but it turns out I'll have to do it all over again. Not her fault, but mine.

When I ditched my prefs file I had to try to remember what my settings were and I had the wrong input set. I did a WHOLE SHOW with the sound going in through my built in mic instead of through the line in!

I was wondering why she kept asking me to turn up the backing tracks when they were so loud to me - and why the backing tracks disappeared when I tried headphones: the monitor is facing away from my computer and I'm standing closer to it, so my voice would come through louder.

I recorded part of the show and it's a miracle it sounded remotely listenable - I guess it's a testament to the quality of my iMac's onboard mic, but it wasn't good. Hexx even commented that it sounded "echoey" but we couldn't figure out why. Now I know.

So I'll need to do another soundcheck. Ugh and sorry, Hexx! I'm going to see if I can check locally first before I waste anyone else's time.

Eva

Norris Shepherd

Eva... i find the best way to test my sound is to listen to the stream's playback...

I set up to stream as I would normally, then i open the stream's url in internet explorer and click on 'listen'. In my case it opens Winamp to listen to the stream .. with a mac, it'll open up whatever.

The i stream for 30 seconds or so.... and listen to the playback.... adjust... re-stream.. adjust..

Only problem is if when listening to your stream, (depending on how you are configured, listening) you may re-send it back out onto the stream, creating a loop.

umm.. if you are more confused now than you were before, please just step away from this post, and pretend you never read it. Smile

EvaMoon

Not sure about the loop part, but I'm going to try something like that.

I don't have an actual stream of my own that I can use, but Nicecast lists a "Built in server" that I seems to work locally. I can at least record what goes through that and go back and forth listening and adjusting.

It's a start.

Norris Shepherd

Hey Eva.. i'll send you a note with my stream if you want to test it. Just be off by 1:30 SLT today, as i have a show.

The whole 'record' thing can be deceiving, because you may or may not be recording the signal before it gets shipped out to a server.

That last step of 'shipping it out' to the server may be where the distortion/problems are happening. I'll send you my stream, and see if you can play to the stream for 30 seconds or so... then listen when it gets back to your workstation via the stream.

EvaMoon

Thanks Norris. I got your notecard. I may not be able to do this today since I have an all day recording session. I will certainly check with you before I use your stream.

Eva

EvaMoon

Interesting.

Here are two sample clips. Test1 was recorded with sound going to a room monitor and Test2 was recorded with sound going to headphones. There's definitely something weird going on with Test1.

But I HAVE recordings of shows played with the room monitor and have not heard this weird thing before. Thoughts? Why would it make a difference?

http://evamoon.net/test1.mp3
http://evamoon.net/test2.mp3

I'd rather play with the monitor than the headphones. I can seem to get enough signal through the phones and sometimes I have people around listening and they probably want to hear the whole mix.

This was recorded locally only by archiving the Nicecast output - not through a stream.

Thanks

Krell Karu

Not knowing your application, I am confused by what you mean when you say

EvaMoon

Thank you. I have the left channel of my mixer going to line in on my computer. I have the right channel going to a monitor which sits on the floor near my computer. I have nothing panned in the mix. I can listen to the board output through the floor monitor or I can turn it off and listen to the mix from the headphone output on the mixer. I don't listen to mix after it enters the computer because even local there is enough latency to be distracting.

There shouldn't be any left/right variation - the stream into the computer is not stereo. But listening now on a different computer I see that there is hardly any sound in one channel on test2 and I'm hearing distortion on both tests. Why would there be such a difference? The only change between the two was how I monitored the sound.

Gah!

Norris Shepherd

umm.. neither sound that bad to me.

Test2 definitely seemed panned to one side.

If you monitor through a speaker, are you monitoring your keyboards, voice and tracks?, or just keyboard, or a combination of these?

If the sound is coming out of speakers... it is going to be going back into the mic for your voice, and this is definitely going to effect the mix, and possibly create some feedback (although it doesn't sound like the feedback is an issue).

I would focus on trying to get a good sound wearing headphones. If the full mix is coming out of speakers, and back into the mic again, it could probly mess some things up.

hexx

Silas Scarborough

EvaMoon

What about latency? I can't listen through the computer even locally because there's a very slight delay that drives me nuts. And if I have nothing panned in the mixer, why would sending both channels sound any different than sending one?

RayW

Eva ... I agree with you about the latency issue with monitoring. There is just enough in the mixer-to-PC chain to be trouble sometimes. I monitor right before the line out of my mixer. I monitor in stereo, both ears, very low latency ... has the added benefit of reducing outside distractions.

Your samples were interesting. I, too, thought test1 was good, but "hot", (but, I'm at work and can't turn my speakers up too loud). And, test2 was panned to one side and a lot lower level.

Distortion is different in the two realms: analog and digital. Analog is much more forgiving of being hot than is digital (which simply clips the offending level and ruins your sound). My mix is analog all the way into the PC. Not sure what happens if you use USB ... is it converted to digital before going to the computer? It might help to think out that sort of signal flow to find distortion points.

But, if you are monitoring on one of the channels, then you could add an imbalance there, if the amp for the monitor is set too high. And, I would assume it to be an analog output to that monitor ... again, more forgiving of a hot signal.

I had a dickens of a time setting my monitor level. It's at 0.5 out of 10, because of the point I'm monitoring at. But, I wanted to monitor there, because it's after my compressor and is the closest representive point to what the listener will hear. Then, it's just a matter of getting the final mixer output and the PC input levels right. I watch the meters on my SimpleCast as I bang my guitar and yell into the mic. From there, I adjust the output of the mixer to get the signal to -2 db, MAX. This doesn't affect my monitoring, because I'm listening just BEFORE that point.

Don't know if any of this is usefull, since everyone's experience and equipment is different. But, it sure helped me get a handle on my signal.

hexx

EvaMoon

There's a long delay in stream to world as you all know - 20 or more seconds. But there's also a delay just going through the computer before it goes out. It's very small, but just enough to be distracting. I can't tolerate it. Would going firewire fix that?

I hear what you're all saying about headphones vs. room monitor, but what do you do if you have people around (locally) who want to hear the music? Plus, I'm used to playing live with monitors - I do it every time I play a RL show or have a band rehearsal. I know I'm not hearing the exact same mix that's going out through the computer, just as the sound going through the mixer at a RL show isn't the same as the sound going to the room, but if you're recording in RL through the mixer, you adjust - make sure you have pickups on everything and check the mix.

I've done another test and smoothed things out some. Oddly, on the missing right channel on test2, I had muted the floor monitor by running down the right slider (right goes to monitor, left goes to line in). I didn't think it would affect the recording, since I'm only recording through line in, but in my second test, I left both sliders equal and turned off the monitor for the headphone test and it seemed to fix that. Any idea why?

The next step would be to test in world through a stream. I tried using Norris' stream last night while he was offline, but I couldn't pick it up. I tried both plugging the address into my browser and checking through inworld media, but never got a signal in, even though it looked like it was going out. Shoutcast said the stream was down.

I think I'm making progress, but I won't know until I test in SL.

Thanks again!

Distilled1

I don't get any latency that I can tell and I run mine like this, albeit I don't like this set up because for recording I have to change it all:

Mic/Guitar into alesis FX8 (mic to mic and guitar to left in of stereo ins (makes it goto both channels) mains out R/L into R/L line in on sound card (before I used a E-mu card and used a regular soundblaster I went mains out R/L into RCA into stereo mini)

I monitor by sending the R/L out from the computer back into the mixer on the other stereo channel and monitor through a set of monitors as well as headphone out on the mixer.

Doing this I would think that my sending the mix back out and should be back in in a loop causing allkinds of issues, but maybe its my software mixer set up it seems to work fine I hear exactly (unless its a nano second) what I'm playing...and no one yet has said its looping or delaying etc. (sometimes I am to hot on the mic or guitar but thats not due to the set up but me bumping those pots around or getting to close to the mic.)

your on a lap top mac though and I am guessing maybe that's the latency is the mac soundcard? (I thought they were supposed to be better for music recording etc. ?) I would think there should be a way to monitor with out any latency with your set up, Firewire maybe? I didn't read what mixer your using, does it have a mon out or headphone out? could use the headphone out and just run a powerd monitor through that keepig your full stereo mix going in..
and last I see your line out is left. this may be on that mixer the mono send that will actuly send both out, (the Alesis is this way with the inputs, left runs both R/L and R is true mono, I wonder if thats what the deal is with the turning your R mon up down effecting the test recording.
EDIT:
" I watch the meters on my SimpleCast as I bang my guitar and yell into the mic. From there, I adjust the output of the mixer to get the signal to -2 db, MAX. This doesn't affect my monitoring, because I'm listening just BEFORE that point. "

This is what I do as well LOL!

I don't know if my set up will help either being entirely different, but still thought I'd toss it out there, and hey maybe I am doing stuff really wrong and someone will speak up Wink

Norris Shepherd

... oh crap...

.. some people have been having problems hearing my stream the last couple of days. While most (85%) have no problem.

I think we've got it narrowed down to people who are using Comcast seem to have a problem picking up my stream.

Sorry for that..... you on Comcast? hmmm... now that i think of it... the other people with problems were also in the Seattle area.....

EvaMoon

Yep - I'm on Comcast.

I have a Eurotrack 1604a (Behringer).

Ha ha, I just looked at how I REALLY have it set up and I DO have both left and right channels going into the computer via the 1/4" lines out. Silly me. That explains why the there was no right channel when I muted it for the headphones test. Doh. It's been so long since I set it up I forgot.

I'm using the XLR right channel out for the monitor.

Wot a doofus.

EvaMoon

Thanks to Norris who did a sound check with me (with the right settings on Nicecast) I think I'm good to go now.

Thanks everyone for your help!

Eva