Archive for SLMC Second Life® Music Community Forum          SLMC Forum Index -> Need some advice? Doubledown Tandino How do I become a profitable venue & also pay performers I figured I start this thread so we have a clear location for all the advice, tips, tactics, and supportive ideas to help someone's venue become profitable (if that's what they're looking to do). So, if you're a venue owner and are trying to be profitable but are not, post up your experiences and obstacles.   If you're a venue owner that is profitable and want to share some pointers, please do so. Jojamela Soon Sailors Cove Theater is in a residential sailing community themed set of sims (15 now)  I originally started the venue as a way to control the amount of time I was working in SL (was working as a musician's promoter/assistant) because the hours were causing personal difficulties.  I figured owning my own place, I could set the hours and the days that I work. My biggest problem is because my theater is named after the sims, most people think that it's supported by income from the sims.   It's not.  I do get tips from the sim owners and guests but 90% of the costs involved in running the venue come straight from my pocket. In the beginning I had money that I could play with.  Since the theater has grown I've found my finances running thin and have attempted several things to help out. 1.  I've cut back on the hours that I have live events from 5 days a week to 2 days. 2.  I've become much more cautious on how much I am willing to pay for a booking fee.  In the beginning I didn't have a clue and paid some outrageous sums.  Now I have a set number that I can afford (for now).  Most of my shows are regulars who play weekly or bi weekly.  Some do no charge a fee at all, but I still tip them my regular rate.  Some split tips (which is a huge help).  I'm only booking non-regular acts once or twice a month and those to have a set amount that I can afford. 3.  I'm looking at several ways to raise funds- not very successful so far:   a.  Building/Selling houses - our community has a strict covenant and theme committee- I build houses that are pre-approved by the committee and can be placed on property owners land right away.     b.  Storefront-  I'm in the process of creating a store that will be located at the back of the property.  I have some personally created content, some resell items (from my inventory and donations) and vendors who are paying me a commission on their sales.   c.  Commercial sponsorship-  this is a really sticky point for me.  I'm in a strictly themed community, I can't set up huge billboards and signs or anything that will distract from the landscape and theme so anything I do has to remain in theme.  I also can not add any lag causing scripts to my property.  I'm looking for sponsors that fit into the theme. My sim owners are very supportive of me and are also trying to think of ways to help me out because I am providing a valuable service to them in bringing a lot of people to our beautiful estate, but in the long run I have to agree with Ticious, I can not continue the way I am and foot the bill almost entirely by myself.  We need to educate the listeners and the concert goers because a lot of them really have no clue. Tessira2 Brand spankin new venue, Stonehenge Arena, and after 3 shows (10 musicians) we are making a profit.  /knocks on wood  The only out-of-pocket expenses we are covering are for the land (which is small).  I attribute this success to two things: 1 - top secret, have to ask my business partner to reveal.   2 - Have Sally in the audience yelling, 'No venue, no music!' Seriously tho, an educated audience seems to be a large potion of the answer venue's desperately need.  We were showing the expected 10% audience response, until awareness was raised and discussed often in chat.  I'll guess we had 40-50% audience response at that point.  This alone would bring our budget to a reasonable level.   Perhaps we're just lucky so far.  I just hope this continues so we'll be able to add more music!   Jojamela Soon gotta have that secret cause I'm stumped...lol Sally Silvera That's very nice of you Tess, but I doubt shouts like mine make that much of a difference, otherwise other venues would be seeing similar benefits. I'm not the only one who tips venues. Great to hear it's going so well! And yes, I'm voting with the ëducate the crowds side. Also ..... while I'm here ..... could I just applaud all venue owners for doing what they do? I love my hiding places Doubledown Tandino Here is my simplist and probably most effective method to being a profitable venue: Partner with a land baron.  The deal is you use their land, something that they don't have to touch and get rid of, a piece of land that won't cost them anything by holding on to.  It'll cost them something, but by being a land baron they'll be making plently of profits already and also have a lot of land sitting around.  The venue owner pays no rent, and builds/runs the venue.  There would be prominant signs displaying the land baron's info displayed throughout the club  (IE: the club is sponsored by the land baron).   When a patron from the club sees the sign, clicks through the sign, and ends up buying/renting land from the landowner, the club owner makes a percentage.  That commission is what pays the musicians.  Any merchandise, and donations to the club would be profit.  This you could also do as a basic/free member of Second Life Copyright 2008 - Doubledown Tandino Tommy CUlt I am still trying to figure out if Tessera2 is serious or not?? OK...so you had 10 musicians...were these all people who played for no charge? or say...a nominal one like 1k? 2k? It is great to hear how it can work well - and profitable, but I want to be comparing apples with apples. If you still only get 10% audience tips, that 10% must be some generous folks - unless your only real expense is the stream and your land costs - but....who knows? When it comes to costs, expenses or income for our venue, there are no top secrets. We are not in competition with anyone - the more info that can be shared the better decicions others can make BEFORE they make some of the same mistakes or assumptions other venues have made. For example...If I was performing at OUR venue for 1 hour - I would not pay myself a fee - and If i ONLY attribute 1 hour worth of 'venue/land/tier/stream cost ...well hell yes I guess i could say we are profitable - but to state my venue made a profit would be misleading people because my formula or reasoning (or accounting method used) is flawed. I think the point of DD's thread was to inform others what things worked (or did not work) but hey...maybe I read it all wrong? Tessera2...If you are getting 10% of your audience to cover all your costs and fees (if there are any), and you have no other income stream - my hat goes off to you - you obviously have a secret worth keeping ticious Tessira2 wrote: The only out-of-pocket expenses we are covering are for the land (which is small).   If the only out of pocket expenses are for the land, and it's a small venue with a max capacity of 40 (which Tess has alluded to in another thread), then we must assume no musician fees or stream fees were paid and that the musicians either played for tips only or for their tips plus a cut of the house tips.  It's easy to turn a profit on this basis as land fees are the least of the costs of running a venue, possibly even less than the cost of a stream.   I say this even where you have a full sim as the venue does not require the full sim.  It's only correct (accounting wise) to attribute the portion of the sim the venue actually sits upon to the venue.  This is true even in a case like mine where the rest of the sim is a 'park' and does not generate income.  Having that 'park' outside the venue is cool, but it's not an operating cost of the venue.  Personally, I attribute less than 10% of the tier on my sim to the venue. It's also worth noting that Tess's business partner is one of the musicians which means it's possible that he donated his tips to the house instead of charging a fee.  The only other venue I know of that consistently turned a profit had such an arrangement. But that wasn't DD's question.  DD's question was "How do I become a profitable venue & also pay performers" Edited to add:  Tess is a VERY dear friend of mine, as is her biz partner, Lyn.  But they have not shared their secret with me, so anything I said above has to be considered sheer speculation and is as likely to be wrong as to be right. Tessira2 I'm completely serious and we are still turning a small profit.  I believe 2 of our first 10 musicians played for tips only.  The rest have been paid their normal fee, most of which are significant.   We host 2 shows a week, consisting of 2-4 musicians, and costs vary from 5-10k per show. Our venue is on a piece of land 2048sqm.  And yes, looking to expand to a 2-sim or something... 40 max audience is crippling some of our fun shows! As an FYI - this 'profit' is in the books only, and is being put back into the venue for more musicians. ticious wrote: It's also worth noting that Tess's business partner is one of the musicians which means it's possible that he donated his tips to the house instead of charging a fee.  The only other venue I know of that consistently turned a profit had such an arrangement. /coughs Lyn plays our venue once a week and plays for tips only, yes.  While I think it's a great thing Lyn is doing, I also don't believe it's my place to say how we're funding it all.  Especially since he's also a regular poster on this forum and could divulge the information himself.  I'm not yelling from mountain tops that all venues can be profitable, we all know thats far from the truth.  I'm just saying it's VERY possible to make a tiny profit with a small venue.  This has been said before as Ticious also mentioned.  I was just confirming it's still possible.   If I had an answer for Ticious and Circe's situation, I definitely would 'spill the beans'.  I have mucho respect for any large well-run venues as I know they are the ones who've been footing the bills for this great community of ours. Doubledown Tandino yeah, basically the point of my thread here is how a venue owner can be profitable after spending for land, performers, staff, promotions, stream, etc. Tommy CUlt Ok....Tessira2...is a 'show' a 1 hour performance? or is a show something that has between 2 and 4 performers over 2 - 4 hours? Sorry to labour the details - but without them there is no way to really comapare. If you are saying that a 'show' with 4 musicias being paid 5k each is getting you venue tips of 20k PLUS  - (with a maximum audience of say 38 - cause I am assuming the performer and yourself dont tip the venue) and you stated that 10% (approx) of audience is tipping...then you have 4 people tipping 5 K each. Please tell me I am not looking at this correctly, because someone is making a mistake...either me...or.....? ...and...as a side note - the profitiblity of our venue is irrelevant to what we do, because we do it anyway. This sim is almost 3 years old and we had a music stream long before we had a 'veune'. The total sim costs have never really come into our venue cost calculations, because we have always had it and much of the sim costs are offset from renters. Distilled1 20k in tips in 4-5 hours for a venue? man whats the secret I am lucky to get 1200 in 6 hours with 6 performers and thats always from the other venue owners and musicians and those special fans you know who... we all do... I think there is a group of us musicians and venue owners who foot the bill and do the brunt of the tipping (at least in from what I have seen!) across most the venues. that being said I have found that my day time open mic is generating a better crowd and new musicians (to me) and a new group of supporters but the tips are still low and slow... hey thats how I smoke Brisket. ticious If you all go back and read Tess's original post, it's not tips alone that's helping her succeed financially, though she did get audience response to go from the usual less than 10% to something more like 40%-50% by discussing the lack of participation in open chat. So my guess is that Tess experienced good tips, but that tips alone are not what put Stonehenge in the black.  I may have to catch Lyn and tickle him until he spills the beans on what the 'secret' is. None the less, Tess's experience, combined with the increase in new names I saw tipping at Rocky Shores tells me two things.  One, there is more than one way to skin a cat (and I may have to skin a male druid to find out more about that...not an unpleasant thought...) and two, there is great hope that the audience is ready to hear our awareness message.  They like what we're doing, want us to keep doing it and are willing to support us financially if we just let them know we need their help. Tessira2 Um, wow.  This is NOT a new idea, nor is it uncommon.  Here's an 'outside the box' flashlight for you Tommy: Hey Distilled!  (These questions do NOT require a response)  You play at your own venue sometimes right?  I bet you get some pretty nice tips playing as a musician there.  It helps that most fans realize they should tip the musician for playing. What about when you play someplace else?  Do you charge a fee or play for tips only?  Either way, it's possible for some fair money incoming for whatever expenses you want to use them for.  Of course, it's none of my business what you spend your money on.  You earned it, enjoy it!  (apologies to Distilled) Hey Ray!  You play at your own venue sometimes, right? .... Hey Nad!  Whats with that buncha women you've got swarming around you all the time?  Oh wait, thats another subject... Going back to the original point of this thread... My advice for running a profitable venue: 1 - Audience Awareness - this can bring costs down 40-50% 2 - Partner with Musician/s with two hobbies - Music and SL There will be NO skinning of the male druid!  He's already showing plenty of skin as it is!     yummmy I'm in trouble when the snow melts, no more reason for jeans.  Lyn has predicted an early thaw.   Distilled1 I use all my tips to Re tip both musicians and venues. if I didn't tip anyone I supose I could cover my tier and as well stream rental etc. but them I am not giving back to the live music I want to hear and play ... do I get better from playing yep and I play my own place as well when there is a need or I just want to play and have no place to play I dont buy xcite parts I did that long ago LOL have everything any AV would want now so yeah maybe what I spend my money on should only be my venue cost... but then I cant tip those I love! Jojamela Soon You know, something interesting I've been tracking these past few weeks since this discussion started.   My tip income has increased about 3-5%, but the  numbers are still the same.   All of the increase is coming from musicians and other venue owners or people in the biz.... not more people, just the same people tipping more. Lyn Carlberg Tessira2 wrote: I'm in trouble when the snow melts, no more reason for jeans.  Lyn has predicted an early thaw.   I'm looking forward to the big thaw at Stonehenge Arena. Predicted for early February.   Lyn Carlberg I've been intending to post on this for a while but I've been side-tracked by a busy few days arranging gigs, playing gigs, booking musicians, co-hosting shows, staff training, trying to trackdown a problem with Tessira's buggy graphics adapter, lopping trees and trying to understand thesixtyone.com. Stonehenge Arena is certainly a mystical place but there's nothing magical about my business model. It's all very simple and it's all about a partnership. As Tess has hinted, the model includes me and my gig earnings. Basically, I aim to play enough gigs each week to cover the venue costs. When I set our plan a few weeks back, it didn't include the Land costs. We already had most of the land anyway, and we had to add an extra 1024 m2 to give Stonehenge an extra bit of space for a landing area and a quiet pool/garden area. So the model included:   Income: Stonehenge venue tip jar receipts and my net earnings from gigs (ie - after allowing for my tips to the venue and other expenses) Expenditure: Permanent stream rental, musician fees, tips for musicians, and a contingency to allow for maintenance of dance poses, laundry of staff uniforms, and stuff. The model showed a break-even position with my earnings as the balancing figure. Land Purchase cost is a capital cost, and is not included. I could have included monthly Tier fees for the additional land we needed when we built the venue, but I chose not to.   Now, after three weeks, I find that we went better than plan and we've covered all our Tier fees too. If anyone is concerned about this, I can assure you we're not gonna be loaded with cash. We set up Stonehenge to be a place we can enjoy, where we can invite those performers we want to hear, and where anyone can come and enjoy the music. We have not set Stonehenge up as a profit making venture. Any surplus we might make is ploughed back in to SL live music, in the form of tips to other venues or tips to musicians at other venues. I don't make any money AT ALL out of this; I just love playing. Tess puts in most of the time and effort into hosting our shows. And she loves it too.     There are quite a few other musicians who have set up their own venues. There are also many who don't have the inclination or the time to do that. So they can presumably use all their earnings to cover their RL costs of instruments, equipment, and maybe even treat themselves to holidays and whatever.  That's their business. Ok at the end of the day, our model depends on at least some venue owners paying me a fee or at least a decent tip. For those venue owners who don't perform themselves it must be very tough. A partnership with a performer is perhaps one answer. Tommy CUlt A different perspective can always shed new 'light' on things - and after some discussion Chalise and I now realise we have been breaking even all the time! Venue fixed cost               $x Performer Costs               $x Total venue costs              $xx Venue tips                        $x Venue owner contributions $x Total venue Revenue         $xx How a venue owner contributes financially is irrelevant in this particular model. Some may choose to sell and make product in SL, some may play at other venues and use that income to contribute to venue costs, and some may even venture to the dark side...and hang out in Amsterdam for a few hours every week (Zak...just a warning - my girlie alt avi is very attractive and you wont know she is me). Some may even donate a portion RL income to reach that break even point. I think the main issue - is contributing what you can afford. Now .....that is how you break even lol......I dont have time to make a profit - I am having too much fun breaking even right now!! Silas Scarborough Hmm....lots of science here but people don't care much about science.  They don't tip because that translates to real US dollars they can only get from a credit card.  It doesn't for performers because we just recycle tips.  I give Kim a tip and she gives it back at the next gig and no-one has to go back to a real life cookie jar.  If I take in more tips in a day than I give out then we can get all scientific and call that a net gain but that's irrelevant to the audience because it never happens to them.  They have to go back to that MasterCard and they don't want to do it any more than you do.  They probably want to do it even less because they're not going to buy four dollars worth of lindens but will probably go for $25 US or more so it doesn't look stupid.  Once that entry is on the credit card statement then s/he has to explain to the spouse why real dollars are going into that silly cartoon world and you have the makings of a dogfight.  This is very hard stuff for 'em. RayW Silas Scarborough wrote: ... we just recycle tips.  I give Kim a tip and she gives it back at the next gig and no-one has to go back to a real life cookie jar.  If I take in more tips in a day than I give out then we can get all scientific and call that a net gain but that's irrelevant to the audience because it never happens to them. Do this all the time.  In fact, I usually give out more than I take in. Silas Scarborough wrote: Once that entry is on the credit card statement then s/he has to explain to the spouse why real dollars are going into that silly cartoon world and you have the makings of a dogfight.  This is very hard stuff for 'em. Right ON, Brother Silas!  Ain't RL a bitch! vonjohin The solution to that silly cartoon world money from the credit card for me was to get my wife into SL, show her how to open up a store, get her interested in making clothes, and POOF! Argument over. Now she makes money selling clothes, and I make good money performing, and our credit card has not been hit for months from the Lindens we pull in from our efforts. Whew! Thanks for that. In the first couple of months this was a VERY expensive habit, and reminded me of the early CompuServe days in 1990 when I'd rack up a $500 connection fee learning how all the online stuff worked. In answer to the original thread topic, oh crap, we've drifted so far I forget what it is! Oh yeah, how to become profitable and pay performers. OK, I've given it a lot of thought and my opinion is, you likely can't become profitable and pay performers. Either you have deep pockets and just love doing this and are willing to fund it to get professional quality music at your shows, or you have to be willing to eat it as a marketing expense to get people to your land to buy things. OR, you have to do what I'm doing with Circe Broom next month. Closed, limited ticket events at a set price, and offer a no tipping experience to the audience. We are selling 40 tickets, no tipping, giving a goody bag of stuff to every attendee, and having a special two-hour "House Concert" in her lovely home where I'll play new material for the first time. Its a special event, its ticketed, and I'm willing to be very generous in the split on a ticketed event where the promoter has to sell tickets and promote in advance. I have no doubt we will sell out this show. Do that, everyone can make money. Otherwise, you can get amateurs to pay for free to cut costs, but you get what you pay for. So the way I see it, its either ticketed events, or you have to have a money-generating reason to attract people to the land, OR you have to have disposable income for entertainment and view the hiring of musicians in your venue creations in the same light in which you view paying to go to the movies or anything else entertainment related. Three options as I see them. RayW wrote: Silas Scarborough wrote: ... we just recycle tips.  I give Kim a tip and she gives it back at the next gig and no-one has to go back to a real life cookie jar.  If I take in more tips in a day than I give out then we can get all scientific and call that a net gain but that's irrelevant to the audience because it never happens to them. Do this all the time.  In fact, I usually give out more than I take in. Silas Scarborough wrote: Once that entry is on the credit card statement then s/he has to explain to the spouse why real dollars are going into that silly cartoon world and you have the makings of a dogfight.  This is very hard stuff for 'em. Right ON, Brother Silas!  Ain't RL a bitch! Sally Silvera vonjohin wrote: Closed, limited ticket events at a set price, and offer a no tipping experience to the audience. We are selling 40 tickets, no tipping, giving a goody bag of stuff to every attendee, and having a special two-hour "House Concert" in her lovely home where I'll play new material for the first time. Its a special event, its ticketed, and I'm willing to be very generous in the split on a ticketed event where the promoter has to sell tickets and promote in advance. I have no doubt we will sell out this show. Do that, everyone can make money. Catch is...... IMHO you won't attract new listeners or new residents..... or me for that matter...... I haven't been able to afford the ticketed events I've been invited to so far, because I'd be spending a _huge_ chunk of my music-hopping budget on a single event instead of spreading it around across multiple musicians and venues and trying to find new musicians. Besides I'm going broke anyway . Bibi Ballinger I'm with you Sally...I won't be going either for the same reasons.  That is no different than going out to a venue in RL.  It it were a viable economic model then everybody would be on the same bandwagon by now.  But I applaud Circe, Ticious, and everyone for having the guts to try different things.   We aren't there yet and probably won't be for some time.  Virtual worlds are still experimental and may not have proven economic models yet either. Since the target is the audience, figuring out who they are, where and when to get them, and how to keep them coming back with lindens in hand is the first task.  Sponsorship, private and corporate was talked about last year but you all didn't want to go that route.  We have no idea what percentage of SL residents have lindens to spend or how much they spend on what.  I would think clothes and hair come first, a place to live is next and entertainment after that.  Speaking from my own experience, being a part of a music community was not something I even knew was possible when I started in SL.   Everybody is working on different things to keep this community going--that's the good part.  We need to keep thoughts and ideas in the proper threads in this forum.  We are getting spread out all over the place. Meanwhile Sally and I are looking for a nice bridge to live under when we both go broke. Jojamela Soon Bibi, you and Sally come live at my house on this side of the hill, I'm never there anyway vonjohin Getting new residents and listeners, that is what my free Wednesday night show at my club is for, ladies. Sorry we won't see you at the house concert, but then, we haven't seen you at any of the non-ticketed ones either. Seems we are damned if we do, damned if we don't I've no doubt we will sell out the show. And in doing so, both the venue and the artist will make the same kind of money, which I will hope people here would applaud, heck, even support, but maybe not. People are complaining that the venue doesn't make money, people are complaining they don't want to play or promote for free, people are complaining that the fans should have to bear the cost. Then we put on the event which addresses all of those issues outside of the performer working for free and splitting tips, and people complain they can't afford it. Gee, sound like we can't win. Mercy, how cheap does an artist have to sell a ticket before people agree to pay for it? When I go see musician friends play, I routinely tip $500-1000L. They do they same when they come see me. Seriously.... $500L is too much? That's about $2.00US. How about $250L? Is $1.00US still too much? Its a NO TIPPING event. If you can't afford $2.00US for a night's entertainment.... uh.... I don't know what to say. Stay home that night? Personally, I think I'm worth $2US to hear from two hours, but that's just me and my monkey. Sally Silvera wrote: vonjohin wrote: Closed, limited ticket events at a set price, and offer a no tipping experience to the audience. We are selling 40 tickets, no tipping, giving a goody bag of stuff to every attendee, and having a special two-hour "House Concert" in her lovely home where I'll play new material for the first time. Its a special event, its ticketed, and I'm willing to be very generous in the split on a ticketed event where the promoter has to sell tickets and promote in advance. I have no doubt we will sell out this show. Do that, everyone can make money. Catch is...... IMHO you won't attract new listeners or new residents..... or me for that matter...... I haven't been able to afford the ticketed events I've been invited to so far, because I'd be spending a _huge_ chunk of my music-hopping budget on a single event instead of spreading it around across multiple musicians and venues and trying to find new musicians. Besides I'm going broke anyway . DjaiSkjellerup Von..you posted your plans on an open forum and in doing so you invited opinions and that is what you got in return. That's the nature of a forum (although I will point out before someone else does that I once posted here on a particular subject that I thought worthy and told people up front not to post if they were going to be negative...but I dont think that is something I or anyone else would get away with too often lol). The ladies you refer to are some of the biggest superfans I have heard of in SL and have shown more support both financial and otherwise to more SL musicians than just about anyone else I am acquanited with. Their opinions are as valid as anyones. This isnt a personal attack on you Von so please take this in the spirit it is meant and consider what I am saying. My opinion is that folks get a little switched off by being told that someone is brilliant instead of getting the chance to find out for themselves. In the space of a few days you have gone from introducing yourself to giving us the gospel according to Von to telling us how great you think you are (Edit: I have just spotted that you actually registered here in Sept last year and have done 56 posts so it is just my perception that you only just started posting here). Dont get me wrong, I am not saying new joiners opinions are any less valid and you have come up with some interesting points indeed (although if you review earlier threads you'll see many points have been discussed at length already and that discussion is best continued there if required at all). I also think it is important to have confidence and after all if you dont think you are great then it is unlikely other folks will too. The only reason I am pointing this out is because I was a little "listen to me, me , me, I am amazing" in the early days in my SL performing until a good friend took me aside and said I ought to consider re-wording my notices and stuff so instead of telling people I am absolutely bum achingly incredible just let them come along and form their own opinions. I personally hadn't heard of you before like a few others here but that isnt our fault..it could be for a variety of reasons. It is just coming across from you that by not being aware of you and not signing up to your plans we have done something wrong. I dont doubt that you give a great show but no matter how humbly you try to get that message out please just consider that your RL experience doesnt count for much to someone who has never heard of you. Once folks have gotten to know your music and know that you do a great show...and it sounds like quite a few folks do already think that considering that your shows are packed most of the time...then any extra bigging up will be unecessary. Good luck...I'll try and catch one your shows soon   ticious DjaiSkjellerup wrote: although I will point out before someone else does that I once posted here on a particular subject that I thought worthy and told people up front not to post if they were going to be negative...but I dont think that is something I or anyone else would get away with too often lol You're right, Djai, it's not something folks would get away with much here, nor should they.  But in the case you're citing, you were announcing a VERY positive project and you wanted to keep it a VERY positive project.  You weren't stating or asking opinions.  That's where the difference comes in.  Any one asking or offering opinions (including yours truly) in this forum needs to be open to the responses they are going to get.  Without that, this forum would be pretty useless. But respect is a requirement, probably the only requirement, when posting here and I would remind everyone to keep that in mind as conversations get heated.  This forum exists to communicate ideas, seek solutions and discuss experiences and as such it is an invaluable tool for the growth of music in the SL medium.  However, if we don't respect each other, this forum will be nothing more than all the hundreds of other drama laden, flaming forums on the internet. Silas Scarborough All this boils down to the venue owners paying the freight while the performers make the money.  The talk of respect is just a wee bit disingenuous as long as that goes on.  There was a suggestion back there that owners should treat this as a hobby and just eat the costs.  Sorry but it escapes me why they should do that when someone else benefits from it. Bibi Ballinger vonjohin wrote Quote: I've no doubt we will sell out the show. And in doing so, both the venue and the artist will make the same kind of money, which I will hope people here would applaud, heck, even support, but maybe not No doubt the show will sell out!  Circe doesn't do anything that isn't well thought out and you must surely be talented to work with her.  If you want to provide Sally and I paying dates, we will glady don on our prettiest gowns to come and dance.  Can you say Auction (for charity)?? Quote: When I go see musician friends play, I routinely tip $500-1000L. They do they same when they come see me. Seriously.... $500L is too much? That's about $2.00US. How about $250L? Is $1.00US still too much? Wow!  $500L tips!  I can't conceive of that!  LL gives me $300L a week stipend.  If I give that to you at one event, what do I do at the other 30-40 events I attend a week??  I am sure the music community wouldn't care if we came and just shouted WooHoo but we would.  Tipping is how we show our commitment to give as much as we can to the effort as  musicians, owners, and managers.  While we appreciate the compliment from Djai being called Super Fans, we don't see ourselves that way.  What we do is enjoy and observe and try to lend our point of view from the audience's perspective. Quote: Getting new residents and listeners, that is what my free Wednesday night show at my club is for, ladies. Could you enlighten the forum on your method for getting new residents and listeners?  This would be invaluable information to the music community.  If you look under the forum heading "Discuss how we can raise the profile of music in SL", you can see some of the things being worked on.  By the way, I got an email from Jesse Linden.  He supports us on the idea of the Music and Arts Pavillion and is planning to respond in the foum.  Stay tuned!! ticious Bibi Ballinger wrote: By the way, I got an email from Jesse Linden.  He supports us on the idea of the Music and Arts Pavillion and is planning to respond in the foum.  Stay tuned!! Woot Bibi!!  Please mention that in your thread where you announce it...hopefully that will get people's juices flowing (along with lots of good creative ideas   ). /end thread jack luketemplar vonjohin wrote: Otherwise, you can get amateurs to pay for free to cut costs, but you get what you pay for. I think generalisations should be avoided here. Not everyone who plays for tips are amateurs - I won't name specific names because negotiations should be kept confidential - but amongst the people who play for tips at my venue I have artists who have cut RL CDs, written their own songs and perform in RL as well. I agree that ticketed events may be inevitable and will add to the variety of live music events available to the general SL public. Market forces will dictate whether they are successful or not - I can see the odd special event being well attended and received. But when they are running at the rate normal live events are running now - we may well see a different trend. Are you going to give out the same goodie bag everytime? How much time and effort and lindens are you going to spend making sure this goodie bag is fresh and full of quality items to promote yourself? How cost effective is this going to be in the long run? SL has been a wonderful new sanctuary for music far away from commercial pressures, pressures to be popular or conform and pressures to meet arbitrary standards - anyone can come in here and share their music and talent with others. Not many venues ask artists to guarantee a huge crowd. No venue I know of asks for a percentage of song sales during a concert held at their venue. For those performers that have to deal with pressures like this in their RL - why would you want the same in your SL? Sally Silvera Bibi Ballinger wrote:  If you want to provide Sally and I paying dates, we will glady don on our prettiest gowns to come and dance.  Can you say Auction (for charity)?? I am sooooooooo not dancing for money! Got some nice gowns though Quote: Wow! $500L tips! I can't conceive of that!  LL gives me $300L a week stipend.  If I give that to you at one event, what do I do at the other 30-40 events I attend a week?? Yep same here. I don't earn or receive any money inworld, the stipend on our land doesn't go into my purse either. I only spend money. If I was paying 500L tips per gig x 4-6 gigs per evening x (pretty much) 7 evenings a week....... Yikes! I pay my tips gladly and with great pleasure and I am not in any way form or fashion complaining, but I'm not even remotely close to being a rich girl, so there are limits to what I can afford. Quote: I am sure the music community wouldn't care if we came and just shouted WooHoo but we would. Tipping is how we show our commitment to give as much as we can to the effort as  musicians, owners, and managers.  While we appreciate the compliment from Djai being called Super Fans, we don't see ourselves that way.  What we do is enjoy and observe and try to lend our point of view from the audience's perspective. /me nods   There's also a LOT of other folks out there hopping and listening and supporting live music. .... Plus Bibi is now my hero for her efforts on the pavillion thing. WTG Bibi!!!! Vonjohin: I've never been to one of your shows, because I've never seen them listed in my usual music hopping hours. Could have something to do with a timezone difference. However, I've very much enjoyed listening to and bumping up your music on thesixtyone.com. . vonjohin Well, I didn't intend that as a generalization, so forgive me. In fact, the first few shows I did at other venues I did for tips until the club owners, yes, the club owners, asked me what I charge. I asked them what was fair, what others were charging, and set my rate accordingly. I've since learned that, for the length and quality of the show I perform, I am charging less than a lot of others. I have no plans to raise my fees. No, the goodie bag will change, and this first will even include a fat credit or clothing worth the price of the ticket with my wife's store, too. She makes nice dresses and stuff. I am going to put effort into promoting the event, I already have by providing the posters, making announcements to my own group, and by plugging it at my shows. If we do this again, the bag will change, too. Its a test. Its something. How many Lindens will I spend? We'll see what it takes, if extra advertising on my end is required, but its also expected that the promoter will make an effort as well to earn this revenue, because I will also be providing a two-hour concert in addition to the goodie bag (contents still be finalized). I don't sell anything but my time to perform a two-plus hour concert in SL. No CDs, nothing else, just me and my monkey. That's it. I can't guarantee a crowd and don't think its my role as the musician to do that anyway. The club owner should be promoting the show, their venue, doing the things in their business model that allows them to hire musicians to begin with. This is said ONLY in context of the business model discussion, folks. NO OTHER REASON. I AM NOT BRAGGING! The venue/promoters hiring me are doing so because they like my music, think that I do the right kind of thing for their venue and they want to use what I do to attract visitors. If I don't attract visitors, if my show is not satisfactory, if I sucked and people did not show up again, or stick around when they did, or if my show caused people to leave who were present when I got there, they would not book me back in hopes of building a scene for their venue. As it stands, every venue I play in tries to keep me on their schedule at least a month ahead so they don't find me booked that night, and I can't honestly keep up with the demand to play all of the paying gigs I am asked to play. And so far none of the venues I frequent has said that paying me or others is a burden on them. They all not only pay me the fee, but tip me like crazy on top of it. Some have been grandfathered in below the current rate, which is now fixed and staying where it is. I have been very lucky so far, in that I've attracted some great venue owners with a business model that allows them to pay me to help them build traffic to their sim. Traffic to their sim means that people will rent store space (which is always far and away from the performance areas), and helps them also sell their own wares while raising awareness of the sim in general. Can they sustain it? I don't know. Depends on so many other factors in their business model and how they execute it, plus factors which would arise out of their control. How they plan to monetize long term is not as much my concern as it is their concern, because they are the ones who made their business model and decided to follow it. I'm just providing a service to their business model. If my service doesn't fit their business model any longer, no hard feelings. Yes, I want them to be successful so I can play there, but I can't support their success to my detriment, either, which is exactly what is being discussed from the venue's perspective in here. I don't make their business model plans or execute them or manage them, I just sell a service. I sell a service in a market where I compete with people who will play for free or pay to play. If the business model requires no fee for the performer, that's OK. Go for it. If it requires no fee and tip splitting, go for it! If it allows payment to the musician, go for it. Just follow what works. My business model requires I make money, so nobody should fault me for working where I can make a set amount of money and gamble on the balance. If a venue owner has been really good to me and came to me later to say they are having problems, I may well work with them, as I'm trying to do with Circe by planning a special house concert for a ticket price, being extremely generous in the split, and supporting her efforts to promote it with notecard-giving posters, etc. My point across all of this is that a venue owner must have a viable business model going into creating, starting and managing a venue and stick to it. That is the recipe for success. luketemplar wrote: vonjohin wrote: Otherwise, you can get amateurs to pay for free to cut costs, but you get what you pay for. I think generalisations should be avoided here. Not everyone who plays for tips are amateurs - I won't name specific names because negotiations should be kept confidential - but amongst the people who play for tips at my venue I have artists who have cut RL CDs, written their own songs and perform in RL as well. I agree that ticketed events may be inevitable and will add to the variety of live music events available to the general SL public. Market forces will dictate whether they are successful or not - I can see the odd special event being well attended and received. But when they are running at the rate normal live events are running now - we may well see a different trend. Are you going to give out the same goodie bag everytime? How much time and effort and lindens are you going to spend making sure this goodie bag is fresh and full of quality items to promote yourself? How cost effective is this going to be in the long run? SL has been a wonderful new sanctuary for music far away from commercial pressures, pressures to be popular or conform and pressures to meet arbitrary standards - anyone can come in here and share their music and talent with others. Not many venues ask artists to guarantee a huge crowd. No venue I know of asks for a percentage of song sales during a concert held at their venue. For those performers that have to deal with pressures like this in their RL - why would you want the same in your SL? vonjohin I routinely get $250, $500, even $1000 tips at my shows. I just do. I'm grateful. Most tip in the $250 range, I'd say, many don't tip at all and IM saying they wish they could. I like that, too. You'll never feel bad if you come to my show and can't tip me, 'cause I don't ask for them, I just thank those that do. I am equally as grateful that you honored me with your time when so much else is going on in world. I mention this ONLY in context of this discussion. It is not bragging or anything else. The context is "why we set a ticket price as we did." Thanks for the "bumps" on thesixtyone.com, Sally, 'cause I honestly don't even know that all that means yet, but I understand it must be good, 'cause it lets me upload more music there. Sally Silvera wrote: Bibi Ballinger wrote:  If you want to provide Sally and I paying dates, we will glady don on our prettiest gowns to come and dance.  Can you say Auction (for charity)?? I am sooooooooo not dancing for money! Got some nice gowns though Quote: Wow! $500L tips! I can't conceive of that!  LL gives me $300L a week stipend.  If I give that to you at one event, what do I do at the other 30-40 events I attend a week?? Yep same here. I don't earn or receive any money inworld, the stipend on our land doesn't go into my purse either. I only spend money. If I was paying 500L tips per gig x 4-6 gigs per evening x (pretty much) 7 evenings a week....... Yikes! I pay my tips gladly and with great pleasure and I am not in any way form or fashion complaining, but I'm not even remotely close to being a rich girl, so there are limits to what I can afford. Quote: I am sure the music community wouldn't care if we came and just shouted WooHoo but we would. Tipping is how we show our commitment to give as much as we can to the effort as  musicians, owners, and managers.  While we appreciate the compliment from Djai being called Super Fans, we don't see ourselves that way.  What we do is enjoy and observe and try to lend our point of view from the audience's perspective. /me nods   There's also a LOT of other folks out there hopping and listening and supporting live music. .... Plus Bibi is now my hero for her efforts on the pavillion thing. WTG Bibi!!!! Vonjohin: I've never been to one of your shows, because I've never seen them listed in my usual music hopping hours. Could have something to do with a timezone difference. However, I've very much enjoyed listening to and bumping up your music on thesixtyone.com. . vonjohin I am very, very sorry I came across that way to you. I don't recall telling anyone how brilliant I was, so if I did, I humbly apologize. I've looked through my posts and can't find anywhere I make any reference to how great I am as a musician. I am deeply horrified that I came across that way in your eyes. I'd greatly appreciate you showing me the posts wherein I bragged on my musicianship and shows, so I can review them and mend my ways. What "extra bigging up" are you talking about? Perhaps I should just shut up now before I do more damage. I certainly did not make an attempt to discount these ladies or their opinions by any stretch. I don't believe my disagreeing or sharing my view as a performer discounts their opinions or methods. I happen to disagree. That's what discussion is for, isn't it? Edit: I just went again and read through my posts. Nothing I've said in context should have been construed as "I'm so great, look at me, I'm brilliant!" Which horrifies me more than you got that perception, because I can't see. I hope you don't confuse long windedness or strong opinions with the mistake you said you made of "look at me, I'm so great." I'll take the blame for being long winded and opinionated, but I don't believe I've ever done ANY "extra bigging up!" Honestly, I wish you would back up the allegation that  "In the space of a few days you have gone from introducing yourself to giving us the gospel according to Von to telling us how great you think you are" because I can't find anywhere I have done anything remotely related to telling everyone "how great I think I am." You had to edit to admit you didn't see that I had not registered just last week. Just because I have not posted much since I registered, doesn't mean I have not read and lurked until now, either. I have, and I jumped in when I felt I had the time, the experience behind me and something to contribute from that experience. Wow, that letter just leveled me. I can't understand how that's not a personal attack, when I don't see anywhere I once told everyone how great I am. Am I not qualified to give my own gospel for business when others give their gospel for business, having had some experience now as a performer in SL? Or is it that I'm too willing to post a different view? Should I not have been honest in showing my opinions? Is it just that you think I talk too long or too much, or too often, so you've somehow mistaken that with me bragging about "look at how great I am? I never did that. I think I've contributed some good things, especially in context of how business models can operate for venues and artists. If something has been discussed in an earlier thread, because others re-visiting the forum did not read them, are they now off limits? I don't get it. And what I have posted is relevant to the topic (which this topic is not, and maybe you could have done in private if you didn't wish to embarrass me and really meant to offer kindly advice.). At first I appreciated the spirit you wanted to portray this post to me in, but having caught my long-winded breath and gone back to read the posts, I just don't find your portrayal of me as fair. These folks also posted their plans on an open forum. Doing so invited the opinions of others, including me, and that's what I gave. If I can't discuss my experiences in SL as they happened, even if maybe the tip amounts sound higher than others get or pay, or even if I mention in context that we do have busy shows, then I don't know what to say. "Extra bigging up?" It just ain't true. DjaiSkjellerup wrote: Von..you posted your plans on an open forum and in doing so you invited opinions and that is what you got in return. That's the nature of a forum (although I will point out before someone else does that I once posted here on a particular subject that I thought worthy and told people up front not to post if they were going to be negative...but I dont think that is something I or anyone else would get away with too often lol). The ladies you refer to are some of the biggest superfans I have heard of in SL and have shown more support both financial and otherwise to more SL musicians than just about anyone else I am acquanited with. Their opinions are as valid as anyones. This isnt a personal attack on you Von so please take this in the spirit it is meant and consider what I am saying. My opinion is that folks get a little switched off by being told that someone is brilliant instead of getting the chance to find out for themselves. In the space of a few days you have gone from introducing yourself to giving us the gospel according to Von to telling us how great you think you are (Edit: I have just spotted that you actually registered here in Sept last year and have done 56 posts so it is just my perception that you only just started posting here). Dont get me wrong, I am not saying new joiners opinions are any less valid and you have come up with some interesting points indeed (although if you review earlier threads you'll see many points have been discussed at length already and that discussion is best continued there if required at all). I also think it is important to have confidence and after all if you dont think you are great then it is unlikely other folks will too. The only reason I am pointing this out is because I was a little "listen to me, me , me, I am amazing" in the early days in my SL performing until a good friend took me aside and said I ought to consider re-wording my notices and stuff so instead of telling people I am absolutely bum achingly incredible just let them come along and form their own opinions. I personally hadn't heard of you before like a few others here but that isnt our fault..it could be for a variety of reasons. It is just coming across from you that by not being aware of you and not signing up to your plans we have done something wrong. I dont doubt that you give a great show but no matter how humbly you try to get that message out please just consider that your RL experience doesnt count for much to someone who has never heard of you. Once folks have gotten to know your music and know that you do a great show...and it sounds like quite a few folks do already think that considering that your shows are packed most of the time...then any extra bigging up will be unecessary. Good luck...I'll try and catch one your shows soon   Sally Silvera vonjohin wrote: Perhaps I should just shut up now before I do more damage. Sorry to jump in here ... but ye know Von... even my voice gets heard here occasionally.....  and I'm nobody and only sing in typonese... I don't know you from Adam Von and you dun know me from Eve either.. but I reckon we're all after the same thing no? Plugging live music in SL. That's the common and most important cause to my mind.... . vonjohin The only reason I've spoken up lately is to do that, Sally. I've not once promoted my concerts in this forum or in any thread. I've never spoken of }how good I am" or said "look at me, I'm great!" I've never "bigged up" myself or my shows. Nothing. I've not done anything other than try to contribute and offer my input, from my viewpoint and only after I had some experience, on a variety of issues. That's it. I think I was accused of much more, but it ain't so. I spoke up to give my opinion in this and other threads, tried to stay on topic best I could, and enjoy the camaraderie of fellow musicians and music supporters in SL. Sally Silvera wrote: vonjohin wrote: Perhaps I should just shut up now before I do more damage. Sorry to jump in here ... but ye know Von... even my voice gets heard here occasionally.....  and I'm nobody and only sing in typonese... I don't know you from Adam Von and you dun know me from Eve either.. but I reckon we're all after the same thing no? Plugging live music in SL. That's the common and most important cause to my mind.... . Silas Scarborough von, there's been an implicit promotion in quite a few of them and that's not such a terrible thing but anyone not enjoying your success may be a bit envious.  Sometimes that can manifest itself in strange ways. vonjohin Thanks, I think.... I've not tried to imply promotion, I only have my own experience to use as the reasoning behind my thoughts on these topics. I've absolutely not bragged. I stand behind the fact that never, even once have I touted my musical abilities, my success or anything else, and the context of any mention of tips, fees, attendance, etc, has all been on topic related to the discussion. There has been no shameless self-promotion by me (so far). However, if I get accused of it enough, I may start. Silas Scarborough wrote: von, there's been an implicit promotion in quite a few of them and that's not such a terrible thing but anyone not enjoying your success may be a bit envious.  Sometimes that can manifest itself in strange ways. Jojamela Soon I think that a lot of the frustration of some of the venue owners posting here is that there simply isn't a business model that is viable for us in SL that will make us profitable or even break even at this point. The thing is that most of us accept this fact and continue based on what we can afford and we do it because we love it, we love the music, we love the musicians and we want more than anything to see all of you succeed in whatever you're seeking from the SL experience. I can tell you that the biggest frustration is being approached by artists and managers who when told by the venue owner that we can't afford their fee, become indignant, ridiculing and/or arrogant.   See, that's where it hurts.  We do this out of love and in return are treated like dirt because some think we "owe" it to them to put them on our stages and how "dare" we not pay.  (I am in no way suggesting that you do this Von- just that it does happen, I know this personally) If it were always a simple, "ok, we're not a match but we can still be friends" kind of thing everything would be roses, but it's not like that for us and frankly it's been getting worse and worse (mostly due to very very aggressive managers).   We're also a bit sensitive when told that if we don't have a viable business model we should not be doing it, because it's not a business as much as it is a passion. vonjohin I can't imagine what kind of jerk would be rude to a club owner who tells them their model doesn't allow them to pay. I understand it must be frustrating to want to be a venue owner/manager and promote music, then have to deal with the fact that it is hard or impossible to make money without one of the three primary methods I outlined earlier in the "gospel according to Von." I'm not saying somebody should not be doing their music promoting. And I'm sorry its frustrating that the obvious question seems to be, "If your business model is not working, why are you doing it?" It's just an honest question. Passion is great, but it still requires a sound business plan if you intend to make money at your passion or break even. If there is no way to do it, one should reconsider doing it, or just accept the fact that their passion is turning into an expensive hobby. I can't justify playing for free as long as venues are willing to pay for me to play for them, and at this point there are still a lot that will. I can't justify booking a tip-splitting gig on a night I would normally get paid a fee plus tips. I will justify booking a ticketed event and sharing the risk with a promoter on a night I don't normally have booked, so that neither of us is out on a limb if the thing tanks. That's my business model. So I have to find venues where my model works, and these other venues that can't pay any longer have to find musicians where that model works for them. It's pretty simple. Again, I can't imagine why a musician or club owner would need to get in a spat over it. Either its a fit or it isn't. No harm, no foul. You are correct, I have never been indignant, ridiculing and/or arrogant the couple of times a venue owner has asked me to play and found out that I charge. And to keep any harm or foul from possibly arising, when a new promoter or venue approaches me, I ask them to go to my website where they can see available dates, and read about booking me. There they will learn about my fees, my stream I prefer to use, the dates I am booked, etc. Then if they still want to book me, they know that I do charge. They also learn that I will perform for free for charities when they go there. Whoever has treated ya'll like dirt should be ashamed and are the kind of people you shouldn't want to book anyway, regardless of musical talent. Jojamela Soon wrote: I think that a lot of the frustration of some of the venue owners posting here is that there simply isn't a business model that is viable for us in SL that will make us profitable or even break even at this point. The thing is that most of us accept this fact and continue based on what we can afford and we do it because we love it, we love the music, we love the musicians and we want more than anything to see all of you succeed in whatever you're seeking from the SL experience. I can tell you that the biggest frustration is being approached by artists and managers who when told by the venue owner that we can't afford their fee, become indignant, ridiculing and/or arrogant.   See, that's where it hurts.  We do this out of love and in return are treated like dirt because some think we "owe" it to them to put them on our stages and how "dare" we not pay.  (I am in no way suggesting that you do this Von- just that it does happen, I know this personally) If it were always a simple, "ok, we're not a match but we can still be friends" kind of thing everything would be roses, but it's not like that for us and frankly it's been getting worse and worse (mostly due to very very aggressive managers).   We're also a bit sensitive when told that if we don't have a viable business model we should not be doing it, because it's not a business as much as it is a passion. Silas Scarborough There's no business model when no-one is doing business.  The audience dollars coming in are from people like Harriet Haagndaaz in Des Moines and she's hoping her linden purchases don't get spotted by her husband on the credit card statement. In the early days, people just played because they loved it but somewhere along the way people started thinking they can make a living at it.  Harriet didn't get a sudden influx of dollars.  The venue owners didn't win any lottery.  But performers' expectations increased radically. hexx vonjohin wrote: My point across all of this is that a venue owner must have a viable business model going into creating, starting and managing a venue and stick to it. That is the recipe for success. ehm, ain't got no shops for rent, no houses either, and i don't sell stuff. ain't got no business model either. but i do love music and have not only heard some amazing artists play in SL, but have even managed to lure some of them into doing a regular gig at my place. and yeah, of course i do the promotion thingies with the posters and the events listing and the spamming of my group with notices when the concert's about to start. and every time people show up - i call that success as well. it ain't all about money, here in SL. vonjohin That's your business model! It ain't all about money if you don't want it to be. And there is nothing at all wrong with that. And if it is about making money, there ain't nothing wrong with that either. I'm not in a battle, folks. I'm just a guitar player who likes playing in SL, is astonished every time he's able to make money doing it and intends to keep trying to do that as long as he can. If your model don't allow you to book me, no hard feelings. I ain't got no hard feelings that some don't want to pay, can't pay, want to share tips, whatever.... hopefully there are no hard feelings for us musicians who want to get paid. hexx wrote: vonjohin wrote: My point across all of this is that a venue owner must have a viable business model going into creating, starting and managing a venue and stick to it. That is the recipe for success. ehm, ain't got no shops for rent, no houses either, and i don't sell stuff. ain't got no business model either. but i do love music and have not only heard some amazing artists play in SL, but have even managed to lure some of them into doing a regular gig at my place. and yeah, of course i do the promotion thingies with the posters and the events listing and the spamming of my group with notices when the concert's about to start. and every time people show up - i call that success as well. it ain't all about money, here in SL. vonjohin Gee whiz, Silas, why so cynical? People are doing business, Silas. I play on a lot of sims where people are doing business. They are renting space, selling land tier on private sims, getting traffic to the island, and enjoying themselves in the process by booking concerts. I am doing business by getting paid to play. How's that not a business model and nobody doing business? Not everyone has to hide their little linden purchases from their spouse, either. That's just silly. You charge for some shows, do you not? Why do you do that? You take tips from poor ol' Harriet who is hoping her husband doesn't find out, don't you? You don't mean we can't play because we love it and expect to get paid, do you? Is your performance not worth anything now for some reason, but Harriet should be OK with buying another set of shoes or prim hair to entertain herself with in her time on SL? Is that new dress worth more than a musician's time to perform? If you value the dress more, yes. If you value the music more, no. Simple as that. SL is a place where most people put disposable income they might otherwise spend on other entertainment. That's all. We ain't talking a fortune, here, either. Should my wife give away the clothing she makes, at no charge? She chooses to give some items away, but should she expect the chance to make money? I know this is a big issue with some of the venue owners, and I respect and appreciate it. But it seems evident it is not the issue with all of the venue owners, because some of the ones booking me have been in SL a very long time, the sim owners have multiple islands and businesses going, and find that entertainment expenditures are an important part of what they do. Just because it is not sustainable with some, does not mean it is not sustainable for others. Gotta stop, word count climbing! Silas Scarborough wrote: There's no business model when no-one is doing business.  The audience dollars coming in are from people like Harriet Haagndaaz in Des Moines and she's hoping her linden purchases don't get spotted by her husband on the credit card statement. In the early days, people just played because they loved it but somewhere along the way people started thinking they can make a living at it.  Harriet didn't get a sudden influx of dollars.  The venue owners didn't win any lottery.  But performers' expectations increased radically. DjaiSkjellerup vonjohin wrote: I am very, very sorry I came across that way to you. I don't recall telling anyone how brilliant I was, so if I did, I humbly apologize. I've looked through my posts and can't find anywhere I make any reference to how great I am as a musician. I am deeply horrified that I came across that way in your eyes. I'd greatly appreciate you showing me the posts wherein I bragged on my musicianship and shows, so I can review them and mend my ways. What "extra bigging up" are you talking about? Perhaps I should just shut up now before I do more damage. I certainly did not make an attempt to discount these ladies or their opinions by any stretch. I don't believe my disagreeing or sharing my view as a performer discounts their opinions or methods. I happen to disagree. That's what discussion is for, isn't it? Edit: I just went again and read through my posts. Nothing I've said in context should have been construed as "I'm so great, look at me, I'm brilliant!" Which horrifies me more than you got that perception, because I can't see. I hope you don't confuse long windedness or strong opinions with the mistake you said you made of "look at me, I'm so great." I'll take the blame for being long winded and opinionated, but I don't believe I've ever done ANY "extra bigging up!" Honestly, I wish you would back up the allegation that  "In the space of a few days you have gone from introducing yourself to giving us the gospel according to Von to telling us how great you think you are" because I can't find anywhere I have done anything remotely related to telling everyone "how great I think I am." You had to edit to admit you didn't see that I had not registered just last week. Just because I have not posted much since I registered, doesn't mean I have not read and lurked until now, either. I have, and I jumped in when I felt I had the time, the experience behind me and something to contribute from that experience. Wow, that letter just leveled me. I can't understand how that's not a personal attack, when I don't see anywhere I once told everyone how great I am. Am I not qualified to give my own gospel for business when others give their gospel for business, having had some experience now as a performer in SL? Or is it that I'm too willing to post a different view? Should I not have been honest in showing my opinions? Is it just that you think I talk too long or too much, or too often, so you've somehow mistaken that with me bragging about "look at how great I am? I never did that. I think I've contributed some good things, especially in context of how business models can operate for venues and artists. If something has been discussed in an earlier thread, because others re-visiting the forum did not read them, are they now off limits? I don't get it. And what I have posted is relevant to the topic (which this topic is not, and maybe you could have done in private if you didn't wish to embarrass me and really meant to offer kindly advice.). At first I appreciated the spirit you wanted to portray this post to me in, but having caught my long-winded breath and gone back to read the posts, I just don't find your portrayal of me as fair. These folks also posted their plans on an open forum. Doing so invited the opinions of others, including me, and that's what I gave. If I can't discuss my experiences in SL as they happened, even if maybe the tip amounts sound higher than others get or pay, or even if I mention in context that we do have busy shows, then I don't know what to say. "Extra bigging up?" It just ain't true. DjaiSkjellerup wrote: Von..you posted your plans on an open forum and in doing so you invited opinions and that is what you got in return. That's the nature of a forum (although I will point out before someone else does that I once posted here on a particular subject that I thought worthy and told people up front not to post if they were going to be negative...but I dont think that is something I or anyone else would get away with too often lol). The ladies you refer to are some of the biggest superfans I have heard of in SL and have shown more support both financial and otherwise to more SL musicians than just about anyone else I am acquanited with. Their opinions are as valid as anyones. This isnt a personal attack on you Von so please take this in the spirit it is meant and consider what I am saying. My opinion is that folks get a little switched off by being told that someone is brilliant instead of getting the chance to find out for themselves. In the space of a few days you have gone from introducing yourself to giving us the gospel according to Von to telling us how great you think you are (Edit: I have just spotted that you actually registered here in Sept last year and have done 56 posts so it is just my perception that you only just started posting here). Dont get me wrong, I am not saying new joiners opinions are any less valid and you have come up with some interesting points indeed (although if you review earlier threads you'll see many points have been discussed at length already and that discussion is best continued there if required at all). I also think it is important to have confidence and after all if you dont think you are great then it is unlikely other folks will too. The only reason I am pointing this out is because I was a little "listen to me, me , me, I am amazing" in the early days in my SL performing until a good friend took me aside and said I ought to consider re-wording my notices and stuff so instead of telling people I am absolutely bum achingly incredible just let them come along and form their own opinions. I personally hadn't heard of you before like a few others here but that isnt our fault..it could be for a variety of reasons. It is just coming across from you that by not being aware of you and not signing up to your plans we have done something wrong. I dont doubt that you give a great show but no matter how humbly you try to get that message out please just consider that your RL experience doesnt count for much to someone who has never heard of you. Once folks have gotten to know your music and know that you do a great show...and it sounds like quite a few folks do already think that considering that your shows are packed most of the time...then any extra bigging up will be unecessary. Good luck...I'll try and catch one your shows soon   Thanks for considering what I said Von. I was trying to help you and I am sorry if you feel deeply hurt. It truly is not my intention to spread upset. I am more of a lurker than a poster myself. It is very unlike me to go for someone in this manner..let me explain again the main thing above quite a few other thing you said this weekend that really hacked me off   You said that you were damned either way because folks did not come to either your free shows or sign up for your ticketed one. You said this to folks who have been to more concerts than I have had hot dinners. Criticising folks for not having been aware of you is pompous and self important. I know the folks involved are perfectly capable of looking after themselves but that really hit all my buttons. Please send me your email address so I can send you what I found when I looked through your posts. You can get me on djaiskjellerup@googlemail.com I take seriously that Silas thought I was jealous and pondered on this at length..tis pretty bad that I have portrayed myself that way. I am a soul searching self analytical kind of guy and I delayed replying in order to think about whether what I had said was down to envy. After much consideration I can confirm that that is a load of bollocks   Never let it be said that my intention is to supress, veto, gag, muffle or otherwise be over bearing. There's not even a chance that a forum mooderator would do that and I'm not one of those either. Just cos I spouted my bit doesnt mean you cannot continue exactly as you are. Mine is an opinion..not a law. Go for it! I offer you a hand of friendship Von and any other discussion we can do over email like you suggested.   ticious Okay, cat's out of the bag now that Jo said it first.  What drove me to close Rocky Shores and take haitus was the way my big Saturday on the Rocks show was drawing what I call the 'sharks'.  In my weekly seven hour event I could expect to be PUT DOWN by at LEAST two or three complete strangers because they would im me, in the middle of my show, and expect me to a) drop what I was doing and visit their MySpace, b) hire someone (at my cost and not noticing the fact that I had two staff members on site and was still fully busy) so that I could ditch my own show and come to theirs and c) because I am too cheap, stupid and unprofessional to pay them 8k to 10k per hour. And that was just my Saturday.  I was getting plenty more during the weekday shows. However, I disagree with Jo that these are managers...some of these people were representing an artist (usually only one) and some of these people were the artist themselves.  But NONE of these sharks were "managing" artists, they were chasing lindies....outta my pocket and off the sweat of the artist's talent and putting me down when I refused to open wide for them!!  No actual artist's manager, not even the most aggressive (and in places in this forum, reviled) have ever been so rude to me or put me down the way these complete strangers did. Lots of folks said to me, "Why close Rocky Shores?  Why not just mute them?"  I did mute them.  But for every one I muted two more showed up.  But I have to hear out artists and artist reps....else I never would have found Djai, Anj Gustafson and countless other absolute gems.  And by the time I know the person is a shark, the damage is done, I've been dissed.  So I mute them and a few minutes, later, ding goes my im again.  It reached the point where every time my im dinged I was saying out loud to my cat, "Go the f**k away and leave me alone!!!".  I hated signing in to SL at all. I grew to completely hate my shows at Rocky Shores.  And it broke my heart.  Why?  Well, Nad, Silas, Skinny, Charles Coleman, Neil Morrison, Kim Seifert, Max Kleene, Anj Gustafson, Djai, Ictus, Eliz, Fyrm, Fable, and I could fill this entire post to it's limit naming the wonderful people who loved playing on the Rock and whom I loved hosting. And then I would have to start counting Bibi, Sally, Jo, Cry, Creola, Isobel, Lyn and Tess, (who met at Rocky Shores last summer), Jimi, Spiral, Wodie and all the other non-musician supporters who have been so good to me. What you've missed here Von, is that this IS so NOT about money to most venue owners, particularly the ones who frequent this forum.  You go on and on to us about business models.  I was happy paying out of my pocket to support live music when that meant paying something along the lines of $500 per month for artist fees (tier was my burden, not the venue's and stream fees, salaries and advertising were insignificant).  If you ask many of the other large venue owners (including Circe), they would tell you the same.  But if I pay what's being asked on average now, the $500 jumps to $1500.  And that's over the course of about the past 2 or 3 months.  In another couple months, will it be $3000? You say (sorry, you've kinda caught the brunt of my heartache...please don't take it personally, it's really aimed more at those sharks and I do NOT count you among them) that you've been being paid by some venues 'for a long time' and they are happy to do it.  Ask Charles Coleman, he appeared at my venue every Saturday for over a year.    First at my mainland Willow Point Park and then at Rocky Shores.  I gave Charles a raise a few months ago because he was still charging what he had way back at the start when most played for tips.  He didn't ask for it, I felt he deserved it.   Saturday on the Rock began as Saturday in the Park in January of last year.  I have been presenting 16-20 hours of live music on my stage consistently since March of last year and AVERAGED crowds in the 40s (often in the 60s and 70s with a peak in the 90s) most shows (by a 'show' I mean a 7 hour Saturday on the Rock show).  Over 3,000 UNIQUE avies stood on or crossed the bridge at Rocky Shores in January.  I didn't do all that to make money or even to break even.  But I also didn't do it to go bankrupt or to be disrespected.  I did it for love of the AWESOME music talent in Second Life and for my hopes for their future (a future which I hope to share).  I'm not thinking in terms of a few handsful of lindies there, btw, I'm thinking MUCH bigger, as are a lot of the folks performing and/or running venues in SL. And my thesis is NOT and NEVER has been that musicians should not be paid...they should.  PLAY FOR TIPS IS NOT PLAY FOR FREE!!!!  Your fans, those 3,000 people that visited Rocky Shores, they're the ones who should be paying the bulk of the costs of live music in SL.  You and I are PARTNERS in this thing, someone here in the last few days refered to the relationship as a "symbiosis" and it certainly is.  I am NOT your employer and I am NOT your audience. By the way, outta those 3,000 people, fewer then 200 actually tipped the venue or passed so much as one lindy to me for my time, effort, work and money.  But a lot of them said thanks and told me how much they loved the venue and many more have im'd me since it closed to beg me to bring it back. I don't need you to pick any of this apart to show me how wrong I am (remember, what you're hearing here is mostly the pain of my own recent experiences and is not intended as criticism), or tell me about your three business models.  I'm an accountant and business analyst and a very successful one (how do you think I can afford to devote full time to such an expensive hobby?).  I know business models and I know what's wrong with all three of your models as applied to SL and they have been debated in various places here in the forum.   All I'm looking for here if for folks to understand the pressure that's being placed on venue owners...by an unscrupulous few who will be gone from SL or will go back to land dealing and sex sims once they realize the money in music is media hype and a complete fallacy.   Unfortunately, they will be replaced by a new wave as long as the media hype continues and we fail to find a VIABLE means of supporting live music.  Until the END CONSUMER begins to pay there will be NO viable business model for ANY venue in SL except the house musician model which is available to very few of us.  And I would put forward that if that house musician makes over half of the money he shares with the house from fees paid by other venue owners, that model is simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.  House musician is only a venue business model if the artist makes all monies shared with the house by playing in the house.  Otherwise, the musician is either tipping (though perhaps tipping heavily) or investing out of their own pocket just like any other venue owner. But I disagree with Silas and do agree with you on this, if as many as 50% of those 3,000 unique avies that came to Rocky Shores had dropped a few lindies in the Wishing Well, they could all pay less than they do for an outfit or new hair and I could pay you your 5k without going broke (or if they tipped it to you instead of me, that would still work, you'd have your lindies and I'd have my venue).  But until they are willing to pay, whether through direct contributions or through giving business to the venue's sponsor the justification for the recent tripling to quintupling of artist fees (which averaged 1k-3k last autumn) just ain't there.  The key is making everyone (musicians and fans) understand there ain't no secret venue revenue stream and traffic alone will NEVER cover a 5k lindie per hour (yes, I hear that you do two hours for that, but unless that means you do one hour for 2.5k, that's a meaningless distinction). Phew!!  I'm all outta wind for the day.....good!!!  Now I can go back to rebuilding my venue and working on my business plan (whaddya know about that, Ticious has her own business plan!!! ) Silas Scarborough DjaiSkjellerup wrote: I take seriously that Silas thought I was jealous and pondered on this at length..tis pretty bad that I have portrayed myself that way. I am a soul searching self analytical kind of guy and I delayed replying in order to think about whether what I had said was down to envy. After much consideration I can confirm that that is a load of bollocks   i wasn't trying to slam either one of you.  I was thinking of the merciless hammering Kim took as she was coming up.  If I think of someone who has been hammered for no reason other than success, she's the one. DjaiSkjellerup Sorry Silas I misunderstood..thanks for putting me straight on that... Silas Scarborough ticious wrote: But I disagree with Silas and do agree with you on this, if as many as 50% of those 3,000 unique avies that came to Rocky Shores had dropped a few lindies in the Wishing Well, they could all pay less than they do for an outfit or new hair and I could pay you your 5k without going broke You know I love you, sweetie, but does that actually cover disagreeing with me? The thing with Harriet's new hair or outfit is that it'll be good for a couple of weeks or a couple of months but tipping performers / venues is something she'll encounter 2-3-4-more? times every day.  The expense is several orders of magnitude larger. I see that Harriet Haagndaaz doesn't want to get busted by her husband for spending real dollars on a pixel world.  I see that performers want at least a little jingle to offset, in some cases, massive expenses.  I see that venue owners want fair compensation for what they do and, at the very barest minimum, respect for their wonderful contributions to the virtual world. I'm really not cynical except regarding what prompted your post.  That stuff is shameful and brings disgrace on all SL performers. RayW *hugs* Ticious.  Love your post (even though it took me a ton of time to read it ... prob'ly took you more to write it). There is usually something in the background for every major action.  And, I'm glad you spoke out about what was happening at the Shore.   And, though the Shore is gone, I really like the path you are following now.  It continues to show your dedication to SL music and the songwriters and performers here. Thanks.  Love yah   ticious *hugs* guys!!!  Love ya both...and that SOOO does cover disagreeing with you, Silas   Rocky Shores is NOT gone, it's on hiatus and is taking a back seat to Cascadia Harmonics.  But it will be back, if only as a special events venue.  In fact, there's a very special event in the works for May, though I'm hoping it will be back sooner than that.  The only thing that's gone is that big, splashy show that drew the sharks. I'll be expecting to see both of you (and a whole lot of others) on the Rock again this summer. RayW ticious wrote: Rocky Shores is NOT gone, it's on hiatus and is taking a back seat to Cascadia Harmonics. .......  I'll be expecting to see both of you (and a whole lot of others) on the Rock again this summer.       I hope it has a bridge with a troll under it (though I know that trolls mostly prefer sim crossing   ) Nad I am confident that RS will return. I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I am all outta bubblegum. And there better be a freekin troll this time. I mean one you can actually see. Zak Claxton Nad can chew bubblegum with his ass? I will tip him serious Lindenage to see that in world. DjaiSkjellerup I'll tip more if he blows a bubble too     Count me in to yer future plans Ticious! EvaMoon Here's a photo. Can't wait to see Nad's version... Bibi Ballinger Thanks for the preview of the new Rocky Shores last nite Ticious!  It was great to get a glimpse of the new build, see Nad and share the dance floor with the usual suspects.  So sorry to hear of all the drama that made you decide to take a break..but hope you are refreshed for the next chapter.  We thank you for hanging in there and send you our best hugs for all you do for the music community!! Djai, major hugs for you too--for your support.  Yes, Sally and I can take care of ourselves but we so appreciate you standing up for us.  We take our lumps too, like the rest of you, but we don't mind sharing the grief when it comes to supporting the growth of this amazing community. vonjohin, anything you can bring to the forum that will help better the music community is most welcome.  That's why we are here! luketemplar Wow took me a while to catch up since my last post, and Jojamela, Tish and Silas made such great points. In my own experience I have yet to see a venue turn a profit based on live music alone. Even the holy grail of sponsorship isn't all roses as people might think. Boardroom monkeys want to see results for their dollars spent - and the data they might want is not as tangible and easy to prove in SL - what is the target audience that comes to your venue? how old are they? what are their jobs? Simple questions like that aren't easy to answer in a world that thrives on anonymity. My own venue is financed by my other business endevours. And no this is NOT a business model. You wouldnt take a job to pay for another job. So my venue still falls under the category of hobby to me. Do I have any hopes to turn ViBe into a money maker? Well... to be honest no - because like the other tenacious venue owners that do this for the love of live music, I am happy to pay for my share of this great project we all share. I want to preserve a laid back come as you are community focused venue that anyone can enjoy - whether they tip 0L or 1000L. On top of this, I have been a part of education section on this forum, I work with some artists to help them with promo, I mentor new artists that come into SL, I have a practice stage that is free for all aspiring artists to use with no strings attached and I have a website (now slightly outdated) with a simple directory that predates the SLMC that was aimed at networking people involved in SL live music. I mention all this not to brag - I mention this because up until recently all people could see was how much I could afford to pay them per show. And recently in this thread someone mentioned how they couldn't justify playing somewhere for tips or for splitting tips when somewhere else was ready to offer them a slot with a fee + 100% of tips. I also mention this because I am not the only person that does this on top of the grueling commitment that running shows can be. Bibi Book has a website too and provides a free stream for practicing. Circe mentors acts, gives them makeovers, teaches people how to stream. Tish has been a driving force behind some SLMC projects, runs a music info island and provides gig support and mentorship to artists in her management company. Jojamela is also known to mentor new acts. Slim is also opening a music info island, also mentors new people and founded this forums without which we wouldn't be having friendly disussions *ahem*. This is by no means an exhaustive list. There are many other people that do the same (but I don't know them as well hence they are not mentioned) And as far as I know - with the exception of Jojamela - all these wonderful ladies run tips only venues now. Will they be judged by the depths of their pockets and not by their contributions to the SL music community? I'm not saying anyone owes us anything for what we do - but surely it must amount to something! You can already see from different threads in this forum the differing viewpoints - some people see this as community and others see it as industry. That's fair enough - there are venues out to use artists to promote products etc as there are artists looking to earn a higher wage for services rendered. The problem normally arises when both worlds collide. I have been sneered at, told that I was haggling over the equivalent of 1 quid (another story for another thread), I have been hassled about payment when I insisted on paying an artist directly. I have been asked to pay an agent comission for finding an act when he was already taking a cut from the artist. Oh and the funniest stupidest thing that's most recent - I asked someone who was representing some Japanese acts if he was interested in being a Japanese liason and if he would translate some SLMC notecards to japanese and he said - I do this for business. 50L/word or something ludicrous. Did he not realise the important role he could have had as a liason between the english speaking venues and the japanese artists?? Not to mention increased revenue for himself and his artists if they expanded their concerts to english speaking venues too? Anyway I rambled myself off topic now - my point is I guess... cos I am chinese and old... ConLucius Say: Person who chase linden dollar may find success in SL. Person who see past linden dollar may find success in RL. Or something like that. It will never fit in a fortune cookie I know. My personal favourite is Man who make love on hill not on the level but that's totally off topic now... um... Zak Claxton I'll continue to say the same thing I've said since day one: I am really, really thankful for the venue owners' sacrifices on a number of fronts... financial, time, effort, everything. It must be worthwhile to them, or they wouldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I'm happy to do my share by being there for hours at a time, drawing new people to their places, spending many more hours practicing and learning new tunes to play in world, making sure my equipment is upkept, tipping back L$$$ to the venues after each of my shows, and participating in efforts to make audiences aware of their responsibilities. My idea of an ideal world is that the venues are doing so well that I not only won't ever feel bad about asking not only my current rate of compensation, but doubling it. We're a looooong way away from there. In the meantime, like Luke says, I am much more interested in the RL benefits of my SL performances than the few bucks I ask of venues at the moment. And I'm optimistic! Like Tisch has said so many times, this is a long term project. It'd be great to be here in February 2009 and talk about how much progress we all made. I'm looking forward to that. ticious Zak Claxton wrote: And I'm optimistic! Like Tisch has said so many times, this is a long term project. It'd be great to be here in February 2009 and talk about how much progress we all made. I'm looking forward to that. I have to admit, my optimism has worn a bit thin of late.  But that's because I was here in February 2007 and we're still having the same struggles we were having then except now they're so much worse. Why do I keep at it?  We have something now that we didn't have a year ago...we have the SLMC forum and the open, honest and even heated discussions we engage in here are going to be key to things being better this time next year. vonjohin <<<Criticising folks for not having been aware of you is pompous and self important. >>>> I did not criticize anyone for "not being aware of me." That is absurd on its face and shows all I need to know about your detailed analytical skills. I'd suggest that you, as a  soul searching self analytical kind of guy, consider that taking things out of context of a discussion then jumping to conclusions which lead you to charge after windmills is probably not a good way to make friends, either. I'm not deeply "hurt" I was just floored at the lack of veracity you took in your slam, well intended or not. At first, I thought, damn, what did I say to cause all that? Then I re-read every post, and the more I re-read them, frankly, the more I took offense. You took something completely out of context there and decided it was a slam against these two particular ladies, when it absolutely was not. Do you think I was or am offended at these two particular ladies not coming to me shows and attacked them? I don't comment here to get concert attendees, I was having a discussion with people about how venue owners can make money with musicians,  and what my attempt was at working with one of them. You rushed in like the sensitive gallant knight on a steed to cut down my discussion as an attack on the damsels I've distressed, and did so apparently without reading and comprehending the context on the whole. To further illustrate that maybe you're not understanding all you read, I didn't suggest email, I simply said that if your intentions were to not embarrass me and call me out on the carpet, you would have addressed this in private, which you can easily do through the message board's private messaging system. See, you thought that meant email and posted yours here for every spam-bot on the web to pick up now. If you wish to continue this, please use private messaging here. This kind of off-topic bickering is hurting you and me. However, perhaps you should work on reading things in context before your plow through my posts to tell me know how I've been "bigging myself up" in your eyes as an artist, because this example here is lame and shows you are already way off base in your analysis. After much consideration I can confirm that that is a load of bollocks   luketemplar EvaMoon wrote: Here's a photo. Can't wait to see Nad's version... They remind me of those ants with some kinda nectar in their bums. vonjohin Ticious, you must know that my perspective is based on my experience, and your perspective is based on your experience. I have talk about business models, for a reason, which was to do my damn best to try to contribute something positive to the discussion about this topic. In doing so I've taken quite a beaten, and that's fine, I can take what I dish out when its fair. Nothing I've said about these business models that I suggested were needed is in dispute, is it? Am I just flat out wrong or something when I said you have to create your own venue's model, and stick to it? That model chosen is the problem. If your model isn't paying everyone, then change it and stick to a new one. If your model is hire musicians for traffic and SIM awareness, stick to it. If your model is break even, stick to it. If your model it splitting tips, stick to it! You must make a plan before you start your SL business and stick to it. If it doesn't work, change it to something that does. That is smart business! There is nothing philosophical about this, its just sound business advice. If some of the emotion were held back for a moment, maybe some others would see this input from me has been nothing more than well-intentioned discussion about how we can all achieve what the title of this thread actually is, How do I become profitable and pay performers. When the emotion clouds the discussion, it leads to a lot of misunderstanding, myself included. I get a bit emotional when I read that "playing for tips is not playing for free." Sorry to disagree, but yes, it essentially is to musicians who have done this in the real world. However, I am not going to discount the rest of your opinions or take that as a personal attack, I read it in context, disagree and know you don't mean to say I should not be allowed to charge where people will pay. Does that mean playing for tips only is wrong? NO! It's a choice the musician makes, and a choice the venue owner can insist on according to their business model. How can I be more clear? Is playing for a fee wrong? No! Its a choice I make and many others make, especially those who've been professional musicians in real life. Sorry, its engrained in our psyches that playing for tips is less than something we should strive for. Just is. I am not looking for "real world" success as a musician, personally. I would detail why I no longer want that, but I'd get accused of "bigging it up" again, so I won't. What I hope to calm down is here some notion that I am picking fights with venue owners, against you or any other venue owners, or "not getting it." I do get it. I've shown I get it. I get it and that's what you're going to find at the beginning of my trying (maybe in vain) to contribute here. From a logical standpoint of running a business, there are really three ways to go, and I tried to point them out. That's all. I've shown than I've tried to build bridges with venue ownes I really like who have been forced to changed their model by being willing to do ticketed events and meet in the middle on a solution rather than saying, "You don't pay? I don't play!" This has been misconstrued into attacks on concert attendees by one well-intended but in my opinion misguided poster, rather than taken for what the whole of it was, which was trying to offer in-world solutions to real in-world problems. ticious wrote: Zak Claxton wrote: And I'm optimistic! Like Tisch has said so many times, this is a long term project. It'd be great to be here in February 2009 and talk about how much progress we all made. I'm looking forward to that. I have to admit, my optimism has worn a bit thin of late.  But that's because I was here in February 2007 and we're still having the same struggles we were having then except now they're so much worse. Why do I keep at it?  We have something now that we didn't have a year ago...we have the SLMC forum and the open, honest and even heated discussions we engage in here are going to be key to things being better this time next year. EvaMoon I have to speak up in Djai's defense. He's one of the most diplomatic and ethical people here (as well as brave). My own tendency was to simply stop posting my opinions rather than speak up. I do not think you mean ill. I believe you mean to be helpful. But even though your specific language always sounds reasoned and friendly, many of the things you say can be taken as dismissive and belittling of people who aren't at your self-described level. Your opinions are so firmly held that there seems to be no room for persuasion. The best we'll get if we disagree is "ok, we agree to disagree" or "hey, that's your choice." You may not see yourself as "bigging up" but the implication is strong enough that I've felt intimidated to reply or post about problems I may be having lest I be categorized as some amateur wannabe for whom SL will be her first chance to stand in front of a mic. I am fairly new to SL. I've only been here since late November. But I perform several times a week and attend shows daily (in addition to an active RL musical life). And I participate here constantly. I try to be supportive. I sometimes put my foot in my mouth and set off firestorms of my own. So I know how that goes - I take my lumps, learn and proceed. I do think some of your posts have come across as Djai described. I'd go through them and look for specific examples, but I suspect Djai has done that - and with his characteristic tact has offered to send them to you privately rather than air it here. I really, honestly never heard of you until you started posting here this past week or so. I don't know why. I look at the live music listings daily. I specifically look for artists I haven't heard before. I'm on LME and I get notices in my email when I'm offline. Grid gremlins? Since I mentioned it I've been specifically looking at LME and live music listings for your name and have seen it once, though unfortunately it wasn't at a time I could go. Anyway, I do believe you mean well. But I couldn't let Djai twist in the breeze here just because he was the one to speak up. Respectfully, Eva ticious Okay, explain to me how playing for tips is playing for free.  How are tips not pay?  All it does is take one contributor out of the equation...the venue owner.  All other payers are still paying. Lets pull back on the emotion a bit.  All of the venues you refer to that you've played at, except Circe's, are business oriented and you say you don't know/haven't heard any of the other musicians posting here (some of whom have very big followings and very full schedules and have crashed their share of private island sims).  When you're in SL and not performing, how much time are you spending attending other people's concerts and networking?  Have you ever been to Rocky Shores, Sailor's Cove, Sterling Music Park, The Hummingbird Cafe, the Menorca Shell Stage, Bay Vista, Stonehenge, Crystal Sands?   I can respect that you are posting from your own experience, and that's cool.  But have you experienced enough of the overall SL Music world to actually argue these points and to be so sure you know better than I do?  Because, to be honest, that's why some tempers have flared.  You started out making suggestions, which is way cool and what this forum is for, but when disagreed with you have argued stridently (and in some cases dismissively) and in no case have you accepted the other person's point of view as valid, or even potentially valid, if it differed to yours.  Have you really explored and networked sufficiently to say with such absolute certainty that you are right and those of us who've disagreed with you are wrong? When I announced that my venue was going tips only, two of the musicians who regularly performed for me said they would have to cut back to one performance per month and NONE refused to continue to perform...in fact, some of the best in SL have specifically im'd me to say they're happy to play at my venue for tips (and I am NOT talking about amateur weekend warriors here).  Why?  Because I provide services to them that are more valuable to them than my lindies.  I can only assume you haven't seen the nature or impact of the services a large, well designed and well run pure music venue offers or you wouldn't be so strident that playing for tips is playing for free. vonjohin I am sorry you felt intimidated, 100% never my intent. I have never said anything to be dimissive of you, or any other artist who choses to play for a method I don't. I've been left to swing in the wind as well, after some very out of context accusations. When things get taken out of context, these things happen. I don't share the gloomy view with some that there is an unfolding catastrophe here now or coming for venues because they pay musicians. I don't share it for the reasons I've tried to express, based on my experience. Others say they do based on their experience. Sharing my experience somehow makes some people think I am bragging, which is not true, but its easier to say they I am a blow-hard braggart than to discuss the issue. Sharing their experience as to why things have got to change around here or we'll all be doomed is seen as compassionate and taken as one version of the "gospel" that we should rally behind. My "gospel" varies. Your will too. Its on a public forum for SL musicians, and I chimed in as a member of the forum since last Sept, who has lurked and read all this, and waited until I had enough experience to dare think I might contribute something positive. Taking things out of context it just a bad way to do this. Paraphrased Discussion: That's a lot for a ticket! Paraphrased Reply: I usually get tips around $250, $500, even $1k so we set the median and picked it, plus its a no-tipping event with a goody bag worth the price of the ticket. I am splitting it with the promoter. Context: How we set the ticket price for a show I co-promoting with a venue and sharing equally the tips to try to help this problem everyone is complaining about, in a discussion about how venues and musicians can both make money. Out of Context Reaction: That bloody bastard is bragging about how much he makes and trying to show what a bigshot he is and bigging himself up. That guy thinks he's so big he can sell tickets! How dare he! Well, out of context, if one chooses to view that and other posts that way, I can't control it. Perhaps reading the entire post would help some folks who scan through postings, see things they don't like and hit reply to tell me off. I don't think at ALL that Ticious detailing how much she has spent every month on her venue is bigging herself up as a venue owner. She was sharing her experience to make her point of view, and I have done nothing but the same. I don't find ANYONE sharing their personal experiences to attempt to make their position understood is bigging onself p. You will not find a purely promoting comment from me in a single post, but you will find me posting my experience to make my point as others do in kind. What is my "self-described level?" For chrissakes...... if I say I am paid to play, and I am booked well into April, in the context of a discussion about musicians being paid to play, that's somehow bigging myself up? If I say my experience is that musicians providing their own stream has not been a problem for any venues I have played so far, and hold that opinion, that's bigging myself up and unwilling to listen or change? There are two sides to these things, Eva. Two sides. Mercy, how on earth can I discuss my point of view on this topic without giving the same kind of examples that others give, based on their experience? If I get an argument that sways me, I'll give it as soon as I am swayed. Because I have not so far, the best and most diplomatic answer is "we agree to disagree." And for that too, I am not a good guy. Sure Eva you are not suggesting that my opinions are the only ones firmly held and not sway-able, are you? I've tried hard to give some well-meaning, well-thought out input on how musicians and venues can work together, and its not swayed a single person who is held firmly in their beliefs. That's human nature. Djai made the claim that I've "bigged myself up" but I haven't. I have tried to make well-intended conversation about club owners can do what this topic is about. His "characteristic tact" found him bringing these unfounded allegations to me in public when there was a well-used private messaging system that he could have chosen had his intentions been to not embarrass me, or perhaps even push me into not posting. Seems he wanted me to not comment on things already discussed in old threads, as well. I don't mind that somebody hasn't heard of me. Why should it matter to this discussion. I didn't find a litmus test to pass muster on before I could post here, which included a survey of members to validate their having heard of me before I was allowed to contribute. Second Life has 13+ million registered users and 35-50k of them online at any given time. I've not heard of a lot of the venues being discussed in here. I never heard of Rocky Shores, or most of the musicians here. I don't discount them as venues or musicians because I have never heard of them. You won't find a post where I've said or implied, "I've never heard of you!" and then went on to dismiss anyone's opinion. I take them at their face value. Not having heard of them doesn't mean anything to me and shouldn't to them. Its a big Second Life, folks. The only person I know in here is Zak, and I've known him in real life for about a decade or so now. And as I understand it, he's kicked back watching this message board melodrama unfolding and making that cute chuckling sound he does while watching me bother to respond. That a poster must somehow post small amounts over several months in order to not offend the "regular" posters and earn his way into giving his opinion is a helluva way to think of an open forum. I was chided for being the new guy posting and not easing my way into things as well, as though that too discounted my opinions. Either I am free as a fellow musician in SL to come in here and give my opinions, or I am not. Opinions differ across the board. And it seems everyone feels strongly about them. Perhaps if we can take this bickering out of the thread and move it private, it would benefit the discussion about how one can run a venue at a profit and still pay musicians. That is what this was supposed to be about, and that is what I've tried hard to discuss, only to be slammed for "bigging myself up" and now being too stubborn to change my opinion to one that I don't agree with. "He was the one to speak up?" First, he has not contributed one single idea to the discussion since I started on the thread. Not one. He's just come in to cut me down to size, and did so by making assumptions and not comprhending the sum of what I've said. If the forum mod wants to email me and tell me to bugger off, that's fine. I'll bugger off. Meanwhile, on a purely business discussion level here, I am spirited and passionate about the subject as much as anyone else here, and I'll post as I post. I'm getting quite a beating for how I choose to express my opinion, when it is expressed by others as passionately and as opinionated as mine before I ever got to posting again. I'll promise you this much too. Should I ever think somebody is a pompous self-promoting arse and have actual well-intended reasons to email them with helpful  and friendly suggestons, I sure as hell won't dress them down in public, say I'm only doing it for their own good then kick them in the sack for all to see. I will click PRIVATE MESSAGE to offer my off-topic advice. EvaMoon wrote: I have to speak up in Djai's defense. He's one of the most diplomatic and ethical people here (as well as brave). My own tendency was to simply stop posting my opinions rather than speak up. I do not think you mean ill. I believe you mean to be helpful. But even though your specific language always sounds reasoned and friendly, many of the things you say can be taken as dismissive and belittling of people who aren't at your self-described level. Your opinions are so firmly held that there seems to be no room for persuasion. The best we'll get if we disagree is "ok, we agree to disagree" or "hey, that's your choice." You may not see yourself as "bigging up" but the implication is strong enough that I've felt intimidated to reply or post about problems I may be having lest I be categorized as some amateur wannabe for whom SL will be her first chance to stand in front of a mic. I am fairly new to SL. I've only been here since late November. But I perform several times a week and attend shows daily (in addition to an active RL musical life). And I participate here constantly. I try to be supportive. I sometimes put my foot in my mouth and set off firestorms of my own. So I know how that goes - I take my lumps, learn and proceed. I do think some of your posts have come across as Djai described. I'd go through them and look for specific examples, but I suspect Djai has done that - and with his characteristic tact has offered to send them to you privately rather than air it here. I really, honestly never heard of you until you started posting here this past week or so. I don't know why. I look at the live music listings daily. I specifically look for artists I haven't heard before. I'm on LME and I get notices in my email when I'm offline. Grid gremlins? Since I mentioned it I've been specifically looking at LME and live music listings for your name and have seen it once, though unfortunately it wasn't at a time I could go. Anyway, I do believe you mean well. But I couldn't let Djai twist in the breeze here just because he was the one to speak up. Respectfully, Eva ticious vonjohin wrote: I have never said anything to be dimissive of you, or any other artist who choses to play for a method I don't. vonjohin wrote: Otherwise, you can get amateurs to pay for free to cut costs, but you get what you pay for. So the way I see it, its either ticketed events, or you have to have a money-generating reason to attract people to the land, OR you have to have disposable income for entertainment and view the hiring of musicians in your venue creations in the same light in which you view paying to go to the movies or anything else entertainment related. I would have to spend too much time digging up the quotes where you dismissed me by saying that it makes no sense arguing with a woman and referring to other SL musicians (I believe the context was those who play for tips, but it may have been those who needed help to learn how to perform in SL) as 'weekend warriors' so I won't bother.  But yes, Von, though I'm sure you didn't mean it, you have very frequently in the last few days been very dismissive of many of us. EvaMoon You've read quite a bit into my message that simply wasn't there. vonjohin Ticious, first, I have to say something here before we discuss this "how is playing for tips playing for free.... there are a LOT of venues in Second Life. A ton of them. Most all of them have never ever heard of this forum. Their input as club owners is not here. The vast majority of musicians don't post here either. They come from ALL OVER the grid. I would not discount the experience or opinion of a musician from Japan I've never heard of who plays at clubs I've never been to just because I've never been to Japan. FIND AND LINK TO ONE, EVEN ONE POST WHERE I HAVE SAID "THOSE OF YOU WHO DISAGREE ARE WRONG!" I have not, even once, discounted you or the opinions of a single other musician who I have not heard of before, simply because I have not been to their show or been to their venues. I have seen a few of their names in SL Events calendar, and seen them listed as playing some of the venues you named. I would NEVER suggest that your opinion is not valid or qualified because "I've" never heard of you. Its a non-issue to me. You're clearly questioning my right and ability to comment on all of this by inferring that I am too inexperienced because I have not been to your place or seen some of these people and some have not heard of me. And I say, so what? On the contrary, I've played about 60 concerts (oh god, I'm bigging myself up again! ) and 16 nights in Februrary alone and you've not heard of me or been to my shows. What does all that mean? It means nothing, Ticious. Nothing. And I waited until I had well over 50 under my belt to chime in (oops, I did it again!), hoping that would defer my "you are not experienced enough to comment" attitude popping up here. I don't discount your opinions, or your qualifications to comment on these as you are doing mine while laying out this litmus test I have to pass now in hopes that my comments could somehow be validated. I have not ONCE been dismissive. I have been in disagreement. There is a major difference. I DON'T SAY I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU DO! The sooner we get this out of the way, the better. Somebody sharing a different opinion is NOT saying "I know better than you" unless YOU choose to take it that way, Ticious. I have never said that, or implied that I know better than anyone. I have shared my experience. If you think a musician who has played my number of concerts (I won't say it, I'll big myself up again) is too inexperienced to comment, you could have saved me a lot of trouble by telling me a few days ago. YOU SAID I DON'T TAKE OTHER POINTS OF VIEWS AS VALID Not only is that hypocritical in your now presenting me with a litmus test for validating my own opinions, but I have never, ever been dismissive or not said somebody's point of view is not VALID! NEVER! It ain't so. I have disagreed, I have agreed to disagree and I have given helpful suggestions, ideas and shown in fact how it is I have taken steps to help with some of the issues you've brought up, and that has been thrown in my face as "you still don't think we're right, so you are dismissive and don't think our points of view are valid." Bollocks. It ain't true. Now, as for the "tips" things. I am not going to get into a passionate debate about this concept. I am not going to get myself into the "look he's bigging himself up again, telling us what makes he too good and too special to play for tips only" trap. Ain't gonna happen. All I will say is that if you ask any professional musician who has earned their living performing the music they took their whole life to learn to play, invested tens of thousands of dollars into equipment to produce and perform with, who is expecting money to be able to support the investment and continued ability to re-invest and perform, they will say the same thing. Spend some time on Craigslist in major markets and see the resentment of part-time musicians in real life who play for tips while professional musicians see their wages remain the same exact level of pay they got twenty or more years ago. Hold on everyone, that is NOT A SLAM at musicians in Second Life who play for tips. Stay in context here.... I was asked to explain why I said that real life musicians don't think playing for tips, with no guarantee is the same as playing for free. I answered from the real life musician point of view. Nashville, where I live, is full of hopefuls who will play lower Broadway for nothing or free in hopes of getting discovered or chasing the dream of getting signed or even a road gig as a sideman, while making the same or even less than I have been able to carve out in SL as a former professional musician who decided to start playing only in SL. Oh shoot, I just bigged myself up again. I can't win, and unfortunately I think the only way out of this now with any of my skin left intact is to just shut the hell up, let ya'll slam me some more, and then be smart and walk away. God knows I tried, with the right intentions, to contribute. ticious wrote: Okay, explain to me how playing for tips is playing for free.  How are tips not pay?  All it does is take one contributor out of the equation...the venue owner.  All other payers are still paying. Lets pull back on the emotion a bit.  All of the venues you refer to that you've played at, except Circe's, are business oriented and you say you don't know/haven't heard any of the other musicians posting here (some of whom have very big followings and very full schedules and have crashed their share of private island sims).  When you're in SL and not performing, how much time are you spending attending other people's concerts and networking?  Have you ever been to Rocky Shores, Sailor's Cove, Sterling Music Park, The Hummingbird Cafe, the Menorca Shell Stage, Bay Vista, Stonehenge, Crystal Sands?   I can respect that you are posting from your own experience, and that's cool.  But have you experienced enough of the overall SL Music world to actually argue these points and to be so sure you know better than I do?  Because, to be honest, that's why some tempers have flared.  You started out making suggestions, which is way cool and what this forum is for, but when disagreed with you have argued stridently (and in some cases dismissively) and in no case have you accepted the other person's point of view as valid, or even potentially valid, if it differed to yours.  Have you really explored and networked sufficiently to say with such absolute certainty that you are right and those of us who've disagreed with you are wrong? When I announced that my venue was going tips only, two of the musicians who regularly performed for me said they would have to cut back to one performance per month and NONE refused to continue to perform...in fact, some of the best in SL have specifically im'd me to say they're happy to play at my venue for tips (and I am NOT talking about amateur weekend warriors here).  Why?  Because I provide services to them that are more valuable to them than my lindies.  I can only assume you haven't seen the nature or impact of the services a large, well designed and well run pure music venue offers or you wouldn't be so strident that playing for tips is playing for free. vonjohin I GIVE UP! I am waving my white flag of surrender now. I am done with it. I am going to let the others dog pile on who wish to do so, and I am walking away from this thread. If I can't contribute in a meaningful way without being accused of "bigging myself up," being dismissive, arrogant, unwilling to change my opinions, etc. I'll chime in on other less passionate topics where the possibility for argument is less. I didn't come here to argue, I came here to have meaningful discussions and keep getting dragged into wars of passion being fought on the sideline. It is always clearly easier to attack the messenger than the message, to question the experience and thus right to even comment, or participate. It is easier to use that questioning to try to cast doubt publicly on the person commenting than it is to agree to disagree. I won't attack the messenger, I won't and have never once questioned their experience and thus right to comment. And I won't and have never said to anyone, "You're wrong" because we don't agree. And right now, I've dug myself into such a frickin' hole that the smart and gentlemanly thing to do is to walk away from it. Several of you, both regular and non-regular posters have sent private messages saying you don't think I've done what I've been accused of here. And while I won't name your names and understand why you all want to remain silent and not get dragged through this mud I am in now, I appreciate the support. I really needed it. At the risk of bigging myself up again, I even got a gig out of one of the private messages! Thank you! vonjohin I am going to make a very public apology here, because you took a joke about my being married and knowing better to argue with a strongly opinionated woman (which apparently I don't know better than) as not only being dismissive, but it has also apparently been the basis for the discord of the rest of the discussion wherein you've thought somehow that I am across the board dismissive. It's not my intent, its not what I said, it's not what I wanted, and I honestly, humbly apologize. I also do not think "amateurs" means anything other than what it means, and its not a negative term. It means to me, non-professional (which means not doing it for pay, not crappy in quality) who loves it and does it for love. If your definition of the word amateur means something negative, I apologize that you misunderstood my intent. I am not the first person to say "you get what you pay for" in this discussion, or on this board in context of this whole issue. I won't be the last. That's it, for reals, I am done with this thread. I hope you guys get the solutions that work for you. ticious wrote: vonjohin wrote: I have never said anything to be dimissive of you, or any other artist who choses to play for a method I don't. vonjohin wrote: Otherwise, you can get amateurs to pay for free to cut costs, but you get what you pay for. So the way I see it, its either ticketed events, or you have to have a money-generating reason to attract people to the land, OR you have to have disposable income for entertainment and view the hiring of musicians in your venue creations in the same light in which you view paying to go to the movies or anything else entertainment related. I would have to spend too much time digging up the quotes where you dismissed me by saying that it makes no sense arguing with a woman and referring to other SL musicians (I believe the context was those who play for tips, but it may have been those who needed help to learn how to perform in SL) as 'weekend warriors' so I won't bother.  But yes, Von, though I'm sure you didn't mean it, you have very frequently in the last few days been very dismissive of many of us. Zak Claxton I get the feeling that a lot of wires got crossed in this whole thing, and I hope everyone can let the emotions chill. In reading through and trying to look at it objectively, I didn't see much from Von that stated he felt he was better than anyone else, and raised some points that others have said before. In everyone else's defense, Von sure writes some long-ass posts, and perhaps some of his intent was buried in an avalanche of words.   So, let's all hit the reset button a bit and be aware that, as far as I can tell, we all want the same thing: a healthy music scene in SL where the performers make money, the venues don't lose money, and the audience gets good shows. We can argue all day about how to make that happen, but I think with our collective brilliance, good things are underway. Nad peacemaking is so 90s. Zak Claxton Nad wrote: peacemaking is so 90s. I know. I even put on my headband, coated myself in patchouli, and took three bonghits just to write that post. ticious Zak Claxton wrote: . . . . and took three bonghits just to write that post. And you didn't pass it???? Here comes  the next war and I'm gonna fire the first shot . . . BOGART!!!!! Zak Claxton ticious wrote: And you didn't pass it???? I tried, but my hand kept bouncing of the monitor. Hmmm.... Jambalaya The first one who starts singing "We Are The World" is gonna get troutslapped. Doubledown Tandino I don't really get where the passion comes from regarding this.... my simple opinion is to not to depend on other people donating to make your venue hopefully profitable.   Just because you house and host musicians all day and make a valliant and stoic effort all the time keeping things going, doesn't mean people are obligated to donate. No offense.... if this was possibly offensive luketemplar Doubledown Tandino wrote: my simple opinion is to not to depend on other people donating to make your venue hopefully profitable.   Just because you house and host musicians all day and make a valliant and stoic effort all the time keeping things going, doesn't mean people are obligated to donate. No offense.... if this was possibly offensive No I totally agree with you there - venues need to be self reliant - whether the funding is coming from advertisements, another business or from their own wallets. But the honest truth is - without sponsorship or somekind of ticketing charge there is no way that I know of for a venue to stand on it's own and pay it's own bills. (If you know of a way please share it!) I don't count ancillary businesses into the equation e.g: making prefabs, textures or club equipment. I think what many venue owners are saying is simply this - it's not fair - for one person to pay so that other people can have a great time, pay their sl bills, buy new guitar strings or justify the purchase of their latest mixer equipment. The sentiment is well summarised by an ex venue owner that I know who said, (and i am paraphrasing here)  'I just got tired of other people having a good time with my money.' Of course musician fees are going to come under fire here because it is the bulk of expenditure for any venue. And I'm not saying that musicians shouldn't be paid. None of the venue owners are saying that. I don't want to put words in people's mouths so I will just speak for myself - I merely want to see the burden of payment shared elsewhere (and in a sustainable manner). Then ideally musicians can still be paid a good fee and everyone can enjoy the music without the venue owner feeling raped repeatedly in the derriere. After all - the musician is providing the entertainment and the venue is providing the facilities - why shouldn't both be given compensation for their time? But there is a general reluctance to charge cover fees on a whole partly for myself because i think it is counter productive to my central goals of promoting an artist and perhaps on the side of the artist a fear of alienating fans etc. But if your fans won't pay you for your music... then who will? (How to piss off a venue owner in 3 seconds: Declare to your fans how you want to keep SL music free then hit the venue owner with a whopping fee) How has my venue managed to survive since April last year? *** through the goodwill and kindness of talents that have agreed to play for reduced or no fee *** by bartering services - e.g: mentorship or promo vs. performances *** money from other businesses to pay the acts that want fees ** tip sharing - formally via a tip jar or a tip from the act afterwards ** tips from other venue owners * tips from audience The asterisks do not represent importance - it is merely a rough representation of the percentage of lindens it contributes to keeping my venue alive. Obviously the first - time and talent donated well... that is priceless. I guess that's my answer to DD's original question - but I don't turn a profit nor do I break even. I just survive. Maybe the question should be - what do you expect out of your SL music experience? Perhaps we will see a natural seperation between the people who use SL as a promotional tool and will therefore work with the venues who are dedicated to providing promotion - and those that wish to play in here for the money because there are loads of business venues that will pay. Neither side is right or wrong - just two different agendas. *shrugs* Doubledown Tandino Ok, here's a few other concepts that may work......    if you're totally throwing out the very good and smart idea of having a sponsorship.... (I believe sponsorship in SL is the best method of becoming a profitable venue... and also, sponsorship in SL works TOTALLY different than RL sponsorship.   I'd go so far to call an SL sponsorship a partnership. but anyway... so you aren't gonna go the sponsorship method..... ...my next thought would be the promotion method......     I would probably create a plan and a venue so that the musician knows it's important to play at my venue.....    ....I would, instead of focusing on booking musicians and paying them....  I would focus on creating a venue that ALWAYS has 30+ people there for every show.    Once it becomes the turnaround that the venue is more popular than the person performing, then the venue has the edge.   If people are showing up for the venue, for the chat, for the regulars, for what goes on at the venue.....  and then the venue also has a lineup of performers all day,.....  then,.... the performers will work for tips and for the promotional aspect since there are 30+ regulars that know to tip the musician. Soooooo....    venue owner doesn't pay musicians.   There is a split tip jar for the musician/venue.  there is a donation box for the venue.  And all the performers that play there get permanent info signs on the wall for $1000L a month. My point is, if you focus on bringing in a constant crowd always and anyways, with or without a performer, then the venue has the upper hand....   Musicians will want to perform there with the guarantee that all the promotion will be taken care of because there's gonna be a huge crowd. So, in summary:   the venue is spending money to create a constant crowd the musicians are paying just to play there and that pays for the clubs rent + any profit Just another SL venue business model brought to you by the Doubledown Tandino factory ticious Doubledown Tandino wrote: (I believe sponsorship in SL is the best method of becoming a profitable venue... and also, sponsorship in SL works TOTALLY different than RL sponsorship.   Can you recommend a couple that are, or may be, looking to sponsor venues?  I've tried to interest a few but gave up as the consistent yawning I heard (if I got a response at all) was putting me to sleep.  Bottom line, no one was interested. My model at Rocky Shores has always been exactly what you describe.  I have a fan group bigger than many musicians and loads of regulars.  Very few of whom tip either me or the musician (though those that do, do so consistently and generously).  But I guess it has given me something of an upper hand as I have had very few musicians refuse to play for tips since my announcement that I was going in that direction. Edited to add....to make this model work your focus HAS to be on the enjoyment of the audience, you have to make sure they feel welcome and have a good time.  The setting has to have a good 'feel', you have to have engaged hosts (no canned greetings or auto greeters), limit requests for tips and/or any other form of spam, personally engage in the room chat, have good, invisible but on-their toes and well trained security and you have to allow build and scripts.  Yep, that makes a lot of work for the venue, but I didn't hear DD say this was an easy model, just one that works   Doubledown Tandino In terms of finding sponsors in SL... IT COMPLETELY has to do with your friends and people you trust in SL.    Over time, you meet people, some of which you bond with and can tell you would do business with.    Some of those people have businesses and companies in SL. It's as simple as an IM chat or a nice and neat notecard. If you are pulling in 30+ people generally all the time, many businesses would want to be involved in that action.    Friends that are inventers, land barons, investors, builders, mall owners, etc... they all are making good money in SL, and they're always up for a friendly connection and solid promotion for some extra lindens. My company Ravelong Productions is usuallly always interested in sponsoring events and venues.... but I primarily deal with clubs, raves, and lounges Silas Scarborough Doubledown Tandino wrote: So, in summary:   the venue is spending money to create a constant crowd the musicians are paying just to play there and that pays for the clubs rent + any profit Just another SL venue business model brought to you by the Doubledown Tandino factory The traffic count for the Eden Ballroom is typically over 10K for any day of the week and is often over 14K.  It's fairly consistent around the clock.  So what am I bid for gigs there?  (There's only one rule over here.  If you cover a Pink Floyd song, we have to kill you.  Sorry but it's the law.) P.S.  I'm not serious.  The Ballroom is not for profit. Doubledown Tandino Silas Scarborough wrote: Doubledown Tandino wrote: So, in summary:   the venue is spending money to create a constant crowd the musicians are paying just to play there and that pays for the clubs rent + any profit Just another SL venue business model brought to you by the Doubledown Tandino factory The traffic count for the Eden Ballroom is typically over 10K for any day of the week and is often over 14K.  It's fairly consistent around the clock.  So what am I bid for gigs there?  (There's only one rule over here.  If you cover a Pink Floyd song, we have to kill you.  Sorry but it's the law.) P.S.  I'm not serious.  The Ballroom is not for profit. Me personally.... if I were a musician that played what fit in there I would play for free, and give 50% of the tips to the venue, plus be on the mic multiple times reminding to give donations.  I would also pay $1000L a month to have a permenant sign displayed there.  that's just me.   If there were a Live DJ club doing this, I would probably do this. ticious Doubledown Tandino wrote: [I would also pay $1000L a month to have a permenant sign displayed there.  that's just me.   If there were a Live DJ club doing this, I would probably do this. There's another part of the problem.  Like I say, you have to have a theme that 'feels' good and at 1k per month per sign, it would have taken about 140 such bill boards to cover my monthly musician fees at my average of 2k per hour per musician (16 hours per week = 69.3333 hours per month times 2k each).  Then there'd be tier and other expenses, but I'm not gonna bother to convert that to additional billboards. I have a lot of friends in SL, but...... Tommy CUlt What I find common in SL - is most of the 'success' stories in SL really are not that successfull in reality. Sure - they make all these lindens and good on them - but they are here for 14 hours a day. In RL if i worked 14 hours a day EVERY day...just to earn what a 'successful' SL business person makes - I would be ...hmm...well..SL rich..and RL poor. Sure, there are a handful of people earning decent money in SL, but lets be real - not many are earning over $50,000 real life dollars per year lol - they might own a heap of sims but they are not operating them from their Apartment overlooking Central Park in NY. At the end of the day, what has made me a lil cynical is the number of (new) musicians who expect that in SL they are going to be paid more than they actually get paid for doing the SAME thing in RL. I have PLENTY of RL musician friends and have talked about breaking down what they do into an hourly rate - and ya know what - they dont make $40.00 per hour. But hell - if you got a myspace page, a few average youtube vids and a computer - that is what is 'expected' by many in SL. Von is right on many many issues because it just depends on perspective, and I know all too well how easy text can be taken the wrong way. New venues, with new people running them who are the next 'big' success in SL music open every day. I see them promoted, read all the advantages they are going to offer (one of the lastest claimed how the performers wont even have to pay to play there LOL - I bet that was a relief to many people lol) - so ....I cant see an end to places thinking Live music is the solution to their already failing SL venture (yea yea..that is the cynical me part again lol) - so....no worries there, there is no shortage of places willing to host and pay for musicians. Thinking about this..maybe that in reality is the business model. As long as there are people coming along and paying to get involved - everything works great. Kinda like a chain letter - or a pyramid selling scheme - you know the sort....everyone wins...till all of a sudden - everyone looses. Doubledown Tandino Yes, "success stories" are all relative.    We're speaking specifically in regards to financial success for a music venue....  which is very rare. But plenty of venues are VERY successful.   It's all about what you wanna focus on... money.. or the fun of it all... and there is a compromise because venue owners DO need to pay rent... unless they're on sponsored land. vonjohin When I've seen venues offering 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 or even more shows per month, its usually been a sign they are going to have serious issues soon, especially if they are paying any amount to the performers. Without even paying, that's a huge time commitment to promote and manage. Burnout is coming on at some point, and nothing will burn you out faster than not making money at something. Second Life may allow a venue to have events 24/7, but that doesn't make it a good business idea. I can't think of any real life venues that book that many events and acts. Its just too much in my opinion. If I were to decide to start booking acts at my club, I would possibly allow some newer acts that wanted to play for free to schedule themselves a few times a month, and then pay for one big show a week each featuring one artist on Friday or Saturday. I'd experiment with treating it like a real life show, with the paid artist doing two sets, with a short break in-between, and promote both set times in SL events. That all said, I don't want to be a club owner or promoter, I don't have time to do it right and still play the amount of shows I've been booking. Doubledown Tandino wrote: Yes, "success stories" are all relative.    We're speaking specifically in regards to financial success for a music venue....  which is very rare. But plenty of venues are VERY successful.   It's all about what you wanna focus on... money.. or the fun of it all... and there is a compromise because venue owners DO need to pay rent... unless they're on sponsored land. Tommy CUlt All this got me thinking - I wonder if some of the 'successfull' (be it money fun whatever) people in SL ever log into RL for a break? - or if they spend their 'spare' time online chatting?   Doubledown Tandino Well, my thoughts on that is that the financially sucessful clubs has an owner that acts like an owner.   They spend a good portion of time working, but they do a lot of hiring.   Other than musicians, club workers work for barely nothing.... so a club owner paying like $100L an hour for a host or dancer or whatever..... The owners that (im guessing) dont make money are spending ALOT of time on their venue... because they made their venue for that purpose... to make the venue.... sure, over time it gets more overwhelming and you become stuck in SL working on the venue....     I think there needs to be a tad bit of compromse... sometimes a venue owner cant do it all, cant pay for it all, and sometimes need help from other people and companies Jojamela Soon I can understand the burnout, cause sometimes I really feel overwhelmed.  I work pretty much in SL full time now, not only at my shows (which are limited to 2 or 3 days a week) but I've also been building houses and stuff like crazy (and finally selling some) to raise money. In addition to that I'm mentoring new sailors and working on estate stuff.  I can't afford to hire help so I do all the work myself.  I'm fortunate in that I have some volunteers that help out with security for big events, but that's about it. Company sponsorship is out of the question for me, because of covenant restrictions,  I'm very limited on what I can put on my land.  I do have two residents that are sponsoring individual artists for me which is a tremendous help. And I do try to get out every now and then and catch someone else's show.  The sad thing is, the longer I'm in SL, the more work it's becoming.  Sometimes I just want to quit and pull out an alt and just goof off and disappear, but I have so many friends and I love what I do so much, I just can't give up. ticious Jojamela Soon wrote: Company sponsorship is out of the question for me, because of covenant restrictions,  I'm very limited on what I can put on my land. I still haven't found/identified any companies interested in providing meaningful sponsorship to a music venue. Jojamela Soon wrote: Sometimes I just want to quit and pull out an alt and just goof off and disappear. . . I feel so busted, Jo!!!!!   Jojamela Soon ticious wrote: I feel so busted, Jo!!!!!   hehe, I do it, just not often enough, my biggest problem is that too many people know who my alts are, hehe.... I gotta learn to keep my own mouth shut Jojamela Soon ticious wrote: I still haven't found/identified any companies interested in providing meaningful sponsorship to a music venue. Ditto, I've approached a few and actually once they find out exactly how much is costs me per month to run my shows (and that's only 10 days a month)  I never hear from them again.   It all goes back to educating the audience.        SLMC Forum Index -> Need some advice? Page 1 of 1