How do instrument-wielding musicians feel about...

Demure Tones · How do instrument-wielding musicians feel about...

...about those who sing to backing tracks (mostly karaoke)? *blushes with shame*

RayW

... in truth ... I'm jealous!

I think the audiance, in general, likes a good tune and a good time. If that's through great vocals to backing tracks, I'm all for it.

In fact, I have three songs that I use my own BT for the instrumentals because i simply can not play them on guitar to any great effect.

But, I really love playing my 12-string. So, that's what I do for most of them.

Good question. Smile

EDIT: Oh, no need for shame. Doing what you love is good. Doing what you love well is GREAT!

ticious

Is a beautiful and well trained voice not considered an instrument? And perhaps the most unique, personal and intimate of all instruments? Okay, I'm not a musician, I'm a listener (the person you're performing for Wink

) but I truly do admire vocalists as well as guitarists, pianists, musicians who compose electronically (is there an 'ist' for this type of musician yet), drummers, saxophonists, violinists. . . . . . okay, made my point. Moving on now.

elvisduffy

I happen to enjoy the authenticity of live playing. Maybe cause I'm a guitar man. Even tho I'm strumming electric here on SL I enjoy the acoustic strums even more. My opinion is worth only what you play for it. Laughing

The good side is the groove is solid. Somehow canned background vocals go against my ideas of live. However, looping artists who do live looping are a lot of fun.

To grab me with a backing track I'll really want to hear you personality shining through.

Norris Shepherd

Heya Demure. Nice to meet you.

I would suggest reading through previous posts in this forum. This issue has been hashed and re-hashed and re-told and re-thought and re-cycled LOTS here. Smile

Here's a summary: Some people don't care, some people do.

If it's what you want to do, then do it. Those who prefer live musicians will go to those shows instead. Smile

I'll keep an eye out for you in-world.

EvaMoon

The important thing is to bring something unique to each song. Using karaoke tracks can make that challenging in that they don't let you recast the original arrangements. So it takes a little more effort on your part to put your own self into it and make it something other than a reprise of the original. Also think about the show as a whole - not just the songs. What kind of stories are you telling with the songs? What do they mean to you? People want to connect and be pulled in.

Check out Kim Seifert for an example of someone who does this well.

ticious

Silas Scarborough

If Kim Seifert didn't use karaoke / back tracks, I'd never have heard her sing and we never would have made a recording together.

Make no mistake that people will slam you for using back tracks and they'll call it karaoke if they are going for blood. Kim has taken a great many of the beatings for you so I doubt it would be so bad starting out now but they did some pretty evil stuff to her.

What the hell, here's a bit more detail as this damn sure should not be forgotten. There was a period in which virtually every gig she tried to do for us was attacked by griefers. In almost two years, I've been griefed in a set only once. For her, the griefing was happening virtually every day and sometimes more than once. Sure, other places were getting griefed but the attack on her was personal and relentless and, to my knowledge, it wasn't happening to anyone else.

I've seen this lady almost crack from what they were doing to her in a set but someone in the audience would offer another place to play and Kim, through her tears, would grab the mike and the show would go on at the new place. Paid her dues? Man, you're damn right she did!

The Lindens seem to have been doing something in the background about griefers as there hasn't been that much going on lately so please don't take this message as an attempt to scare you as that's not my intention. What I would like to do is congratulate Kim on having the heart to get through all that and make it safe(r) for those who came after her.

P.S. I have no idea who 'they' might be. 'They' are the people who make you take your shoes off when you get onto airplanes, put Republicans in the White House, put those stupid labels on mattresses, etc. You know, they!

Zak Claxton

It's fine. Do whatever it is your audience likes. Have fun. Smile

vonjohin

I personally am not interested in playing to backing tracks, which is why I chose to do acoustic blues here. Ironically, I have probably 8 electrics for every acoustic I own (I know, its a disease). I don't use an electric, because I don't want to play to backing tracks because I find them personally to be limiting or impossible for spontaneous and extended improvisation, they require some level of set-list planning, and it just doesn't appeal to me to sing and play guitar over them, electric or acoustic.

It would not matter to me if I recorded the tracks all myself, or if they were original multi-tracks of the artist I was covering. I just don't personally want to, so I don't. I do have some incredible bootleg multi-tracks, it's tempting, but if for instance, I tried to sing Killer Queen, it would be comical at best!

I don't know anyone who out of hat dismisses those who use backing tracks, loopers, drum machines or anything else in a negative way, because of their use of those tools.

What I have I've heard is some ugly comments about some who use backing tracks who in turn sound like karaoke night performers because they can't sing, can't hit a note, the song is in a key that they can't hit and it didn't occur to them to change it, they can't sing in time to the track, and their performances show them to be what they are, karaoke singers performing in SL.

There are plenty of them, let's be honest. That said, there are plenty of "karaoke" live instrument players in the same league. It takes all kinds to make the world go around. For many, Second Life is the first time they have ever actually performed in their lives "in front of an audience." They are hobbyists, having fun, chasing a dream and there is nothing wrong with it. Nothing. At all. Period.

I don't feel negatively toward a great singer giving a great performance to a backing track and cut them down because they use a backing track.

In short, if somebody is dismissive of a great singer because that singer uses a tool like backing tracks, that somebody is a tool. Smile

On the other hand we all know what suck means subjectively to each of us when we hear it, and it would happen with or without a track.

Jambalaya

I think the only thing to do is to make sure you're not misrepresenting yourself. So long as YOU are performing live, accompaniment is a matter of choice.

I would actually like to do something with tracks myself, so I can play electric. My idea for tracks is using either stuff I've created or enlisted specific people to do, rather than buying off-the-shelf tracks. I could play without them, sure - but doing a solo electric guitar act is one thing, while a band-type thing is another. I'd rather do the latter at the moment.

Silas Scarborough

Not in SL. If you seriously think you can switch from a solo act to back tracks or karaoke without people firing on you then you prob'ly ought to call a doctor. You will get slammed. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is.

ticious

Unfortunately, Silas is right, but fortunately, only to a point and not as right as he was six months ago. There definitely are people in SL who take the word 'live' to be 100% literal and will fire on any one using backing tracks or any other recorded support, whether their own recordings or purchased recordings.

However, there's been a pretty major shift over the past few months. The 'mainstream' music scene in SL (if there is such a thing; something I kinda doubt) is now almost universally accepting of some form of recorded accompaniment and there are very few SL musicians who are not using some support. What I'm talking about here is folks recording a portion of the performance to support an other wise live instrumental and/or vocal performance (perhaps the lead guitar is live, but the rhythm section accompanying the guitar is recorded, often by the musician themselves, sometimes by other SL musicians, sometimes purchased) as well as full backing tracks being used by several vocalists now.

The often times very heated debates over the past few months have really kinda opened the doors (and people's minds) to the fact that the digital age has given us a whole new buffet of options with which to create music and it is completely right for folks to make use of them. On the main, performances are judged by the audience the same way in Second Life as in real life: Is the overall performance enjoyable? And at the end of the day, it's the judgment of your audience that counts, not the opinions of a handful of purists.

Sally Silvera

How about people that do both? Wink

I'm with Jambalaya... as long as you're performing live, bring it on!

Doubledown Tandino

I simply think each performing act is what it is. A backing track singer is one sort of show.... and a instrument weilding original music performer is another kind of show... as long as everything is presented in the right way, everyone's cool with everything.

Something very cool Nad does, is arranges his own versions of tunes, then plays his arrangements to sing live for his shows. It's a mixture of both.

Tommy CUlt

I think SL live music is all about entertaining the audience - and many will appreciate someone regardless of the backing music - be it a guitar being played, or a backing track.

I dont agree that a beautifully trained voice is an instrument -in the same way I dont think a beautifully played guitar is a voice - they are not interchangable - they are 2 different things - but that is just how I see it. I like to lable an instrumentalist as someone who plays an instrument and a vocalist as someone who uses their voice. Some musicians can do both! A MUSICIAN is someone who makes MUSIC - and that is the real issue - people make music in SL in many different ways - and that is what most of the audience are here to listen to - MUSIC!

RayW

Tommy CUlt

Very true Ray - and as you say, that entertainment includes all those things that the 'live' aspect of the performance brings - but I was also thinking - the performance in SL - matched with a cool venue also adds to that whole entertainment part!

EvaMoon

I do both - some songs me and piano, some with recorded tracks of my band. I've never heard a peep of complaint about it from anyone. I'm always up front about what's going on.

The music scene would be dull indeed if no recorded backing tracks at all were allowed. 99% of what you'd hear would be a soloist with a guitar. I like variety.

And I'll say again what Ray also said - it's about entertaining and connecting with the audience. NOT just about the music. I can hear better music listening to finely produced finished recordings. But they don't give me the live thrill.

ticious

Zak Claxton

I think our pal BabbleGrabble is a great example of someone who does both really, really well. He'll do some stuff entirely unaccompanied, and a bunch of others while playing/singing to track (that he created in the first place). No one seems to make a big deal about it at all, and his shows are really enjoyable.

As I've mentioned in other threads, there's no guarantee that I won't at some point do some stuff with my own tracks rolling behind me. I'm no purist. Smile

Kim Seifert

Von...things have changed quite a bit from the time that Silas is talking about to the time that you joined SL. But the way I see it, those days are over. Ya they were tough for me but things are ok now. No one bothers me anymore at all.

I use backing tracks simply because I don't play a guitar or piano well enough to back myself up. Never had to because when I have performed in RL (no I am not a hobbyist), I had a band backing me. Am working on this though as I am practicing every day on my guitar so I can add that to my set.

I use "karaoke" tracks for most of my songs and it is very hard because Eva is absolutely right. They limit me. It is also much harder to sing to them than to sing with a band backing because you have to conform to the music rather than working together the way a band in RL does. It took a lot to get used to singing to the tracks but I do it because I want to perform songs with instrumental backing instead of doing them all acapella. But I am thankful for them because they have enabled me to perform in SL.

The cool thing that came out of this is that due to the fact that I don't accompany myself instrumentally, I have sought help from other musicians in SL and that has opened up opportunities for better sounds. Now I collaborate with other musicians who perform and record backing tracks for me for both covers and my original songs (I write melody and lyrics). I have a karaoke version of House of the Rising Sun and it is ok....then I have tracks performed and recorded by Silas and it rocks and I can wail. My vision is that soon, the technology will advance to the point that I can perform in realtime with musicians all over the world. Of course, we are seeing this with VLB and daisy chain streaming.

My advice...if you wanna sing and you do it well, use whatever you have to use to sing, whether that be tracks or not. And when people try to put you down, take the high road, keep singing and move on.

Silas Scarborough

Geez, it's got you too. This is really sad. EvaMoon, you don't need to be 'up-front' about anything as you're not doing anything wrong. It's just SL that gets you guilty about it. This back-track guilt comes from the acoustic crowd and they only do it to validate themselves at your expense. There are some really good eggs playing acoustic but there is also the contingent that created this snakepit of back-track guilt and you don't owe them any damn thing at all.

Silas Scarborough

Silas Scarborough

Fyrm Fouroux

The original question of this thread focuses on vocalists and there seems to be a feeling that the term Karaoke has undeservedly negative connotations for some SL vocalists who can sing well.

Let me focus then on the singer. I sometimes sing songs a capella and that is singing with zero accompaniment. Let us coin the term Bacapella for singers who sing with some form of backing tracks. I shall define Bacapella as (typically) solo voice with the kind of backing track that might be used for Karaoke (accepting that either the quality of both backing track and voice could be extremely good or that one or both could be dire).

I shall assume that most vocalists endeavour to interpret existing songs in their own way, but should a singer cover a published song in as exact a fashion as possible, imitating the original singer in all respects, I shall classify this as a case of CopyBacapella. Anyone singing either Bacapella or CopyBacapella in SL is not being innovative in terms of the new digital age, IMHO. But they might well be giving us some excellent music.

Folks who use a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) to arrange and compose tracks, using computer generated sound synthesis, that could be used in Bacapella and then sing over it fall into a different category in my view, and I shall coin the term DawCapella to cover them (I do realise that this might be tricky pronounciation-wise for you North Americans – one doesn’t want to drift towards ‘dorque’, of course). As far as making use of the new digital age to create music, it is only the DawCapellas who are doing this in any serious fashion, IMHO. Nad would be a shining example of a DawCapella.

An SL performance analyst [think: music critic in old-speak], reviewing a track for Kim’s new magazine for example, might then wish to comment on which components of the finally streamed sound, apart from the solo voice, were played live in addition to the Bacapella track (maybe Silas’s screaming guitar?), and which components were once played live but were pre-recorded to BECOME part of the Bacapella track (perhaps some keyboard chords and a cheeky little solo from EvaMoon?). The analyst might then go on to consider which aspects of the performance might be attributed to the originality of the primary performer and the other contributing avis (in terms of composition, arrangement, virtuosity, emotional timbre, and so forth).

There! That makes things so much clearer, doesn’t it? Confused

Zak Claxton

vonjohin

There is no "acoustic crowd" doing anything, let alone accusing guilt on people using backing tracks. That actions of the individual do not represent the action of the class. That's just silly. I don't understand the "us vs. them" mentality of "acoustic vs electric." I think its all in your mind. Acoustic musicians don't have a union or guild issuing edicts, there is no group or crowd, there is no reason to use broad strokes of the brush to paint the majority of them while leaving a few of them unpainted.

I don't think its any more fair to claim this is coming from "acoustic musicians" than it is to say that all guitarists who use backing tracks and play electric have some kind of bizarre beef with acoustic guitar players in SL. Further, the question of the topic was how do musicians who play their own instruments feel about people who sing to backing tracks. That could well imply people playing non-acoustic instruments, be it electric guitars with loopers and drum machines, or electric guitars solo, or digital pianos, because let's face it, most folks are not likely putting mics on a Steinway for SL piano shows.

I've listened to really good singers sing to lousy backing tracks and still had a good time in SL. I've listened to really lousy singers sing to really good backing tracks and gone "Blech!" I've listened to really bad musicians playing really poorly on their instruments unable to sing and gone "blech." I've listened to horrible guitar tones played over drum machines or tracks, poorly, with horrible singing, and walk away scratching my head. Then there is the whole subjective and personal part of it anyway. Who am I to be nasty about somebody's choice of performance? Nobody. That's who. It's your thang, do what ya wanna do!

Its been said here already, its all about giving a great performance, no matter how you do it. Its all about the SUM of the performance, not how it was done. Was the crowd entertained? Were they happy? Did they stay? Did they tip the performer and show applause and cheers and appreciation? That's the stuff the counts. The ends are not the way to justify the means.

Dismissing a whole class of people because of how they do their shows is ridiculous, immature and divisive among us. Whether its snobbery of "live instrument vs. tracks" or "acoustic vs. electric" its just rubbish.

vonjohin

DAWcapella. WOOT WOOT! You're brilliant. Smile

vonjohin

I don't care that you sing to tracks, Kim. People like what you do, you have good crowds, and they take good care of you. That's the end we all want anyway, isn't it? None of us can cure the small-winky-fueled activities of a handful of childish hecklers out there. I'm glad you're not getting harassed now, but you seem to have weathered it well.

You've illustrated well why I don't play to backing tracks, and share mine and others views that they are limiting in a number of ways. From the inability to interact with the musicians in real time, to the inability to take a extra solo or improvise beyond a pre-set area of improvisation, to the hassle of having to be bound by what you have in your list. This is what keeps me from doing it.

I hope that if you find yourself settled in one place in RL long enough now, that maybe you'll find a pianist, guitarist, or something and someday treat us to what you'd do if you were singing with another musician, so we could hear how you perform without the performance enabling but interactive shackling use of tracks.

ticious

Sally Silvera

elvisduffy

Hey Zak, if you start using your tracks to sing over consider changing the mix somehow. Maybe lose the drums? Just to keep it a different animal than your CD. Something unique unto itself.

I doesn't surprise me to see a bunch of guitar players on here cause they always like to fiddle with gadgets. Singers often aren't gadget people. Their guitar player does that. Smile

There's a lot of amazing singers who don't know they're missing an opportunity to sing, or even how to begin. I'm a gadget fiddler and it still took me a while to wrap my brain around the idea.

Zak Claxton

vonjohin

Well, who are THEY, then Ticious? Who is this "acoustic crowd" being cooked up in folks minds and elevated to myth-status? You might have a few folks looking down their noses, but people are people and do that kind of thing.

As a person who performs acoustic music here, I take offense at this generalization and find it absurd, divisive and harmful to the overall good of the music scene in SL.

I got an invite from that Guild group. I have not joined, yet. I may do so. If you want to think what they are trying to do is evil and nasty toward others, you can choose to do that. I think they are trying to help venue owners who pay money for acts, or others looking to hire acts for special events or parties, to have some kind of measure of what is and is not a professional quality musical performance.

Perhaps a mall owner or a person just looking to hire for a special event would take comfort in being able to choose from a vetted list of professional musicians, following certain standards that do indeed separate them from hobbyists, that is, the hobbyists who are not up to the same standards as a professional might be.

Further, being an amateur (lover of, not the negative word, please), or hobbyist does not mean you could not get into that Guild. As long as the quality is there, I think they'd be willing to accept the performer.

If I were to join this as an officer as they've requested, I could assure you that I would not stay part of anything that dismissed vocalists using backing tracks, or anyone else who presented quality, professional, entertaining performances.

I understand what they are trying to do and why. And again, I chose to not see the evil in it or cast suspicions on it. There is a line between professional and non-professional. If they want a guild to help otherwise inexperienced talent buyers to sort that out when planning their events, I don't see the harm.

ticious

Please don't take offense, Von. You are definitely not one of the folks who've been responsible for the negativity in SL regarding the use of recorded elements and tracks. To my knowledge, you've never taken any such stance and never would

I'm not going to name names here. Those of us who've been around a while longer know exactly who these folks are and there's really no need to go there, but yes, they have been extremely vocal and extremely nasty. This is not something that's been cooked up in anyone's minds. I could name lots of name, Silas could name lots of names and Kim could name lots of names. And no one's elevated them to 'myth-status'. They simply are. If you really wanna know more about that, troll through some of the earliest posts on this board and/or go back and look at the fire storm that caused the Linden's unmoderated mailing list idea to fall apart. This is what was behind it.

Please understand, this is NOT a generalization and it's NOT pointed at you or any of the other acoustic performers who have nothing to do with it. In fact, not all the folks who've come out so strongly against the use of recorded materials were necessarily acoustic.

As for the Guild, I didn't say that I thought what they were doing was 'evil' or bad, but their notecard had some highly divisive language in it and they did use some of the exact phrasing that has been used to put down folks who don't perform wholly live. I totally understand that it was simply a starting place and hopefully, they would set that aside and move in the direction you describe . . .which I agree, could grow to be a positive thing. But the language in the notecard is also the legacy of this history we're talking about.

But we're straying from the topic of this thread . . . which had been leading in an extremely positive, embracing and even healing direction. I have no desire to let this thing get started again here now. Please understand, this is not about my opinion or someone else's opinion or some mythical thing that was cooked up in someone's mind. It's about the history of music in SL and what has gone before and what some folks have had to deal with and don't want to have to deal with anymore. If these things took place before you joined the scene, that doesn't make them any more mythical than any other historical period of bigotry and intolerance that may have taken place before you were born. It may seem foolish and incredible that folks were once burned as witches for keeping cats as pets, but nonetheless, some were. Thank god, we've moved on!!

RayW

EvaMoon

To try to draw a distinction between "live" and "hobbyist" is completely orthogonal. The two are not correlative. You can be a live hobbyist. You can also be a professional who combines digital and live sources. A lot of really high level live bands playing in RL incorporate digital sources into the mix on stage. Go to a RL U2 concert some time. Would they be drummed out of the guild?

Silas Scarborough

RayW

To further derail this ... I DO like the idea of some way to provide venues with information on a performer. I was just insulted by the categories offered.

Sorry.

Silas Scarborough

From von Johin last night: "There is nothing I play on acoustic I can't play on electric. And I also think that the beauty of the acoustic guitar is that there is nothing to hide behind to cover up mistakes in playing. No delay, no echo, no reverb, no chorus or flange or distortion or anything else. It's pure licks pull from the fingertips."

Yep, you're pure, von Johin. A pure bullshit artist.

Kim Seifert

Ray....one of the things I want to provide in my magazine is a list of musicians, the style of music they perform, genres, background, etc. My vision for this is to have an exhaustive catalog of musicians including everyone, not a "holier than thou" guild that separates and divides the community.

Kim Seifert

and Von...I can't imagine that you'd come to hear me at all anyway. Try it sometime, you just might be surprised.

EDIT: I'm editing this rather than deleting it so that folks can see my apology. I am sorry for saying it Von....was a knee jerk mean thing to say.

vonjohin

vonjohin

Silas, if you can't keep things on a civil level without hurling ad hoc insults at people, I will thank you to not speak to me at all. If you don't like me, ignore me. Personal attacks, as you are prone to do, are completely out of line.

Edited to add: If you disagree, unplug sometime. I get away with murder plugged in that I can't get away with unplugged. If you take it personally, you chose to do so. I was talking about ME and MY playing, note the words, "I" in the sentence, and then comprehend that I was talking about ME before you go off and hurl attacks at people. I didn't call myself pure, you got on a high horse and decided to once again hurl insults. I don't understand that reasoning. I honestly don't.

I get hammered because people don't like my opinions, that's fine. I can take the heat. However there is no room for such meanness like you routinely exhibit here. Its absurd that you get a free pass on this forum with posting mean, insulting things like this and the other things you posted, and never does a moderator say a word.

vonjohin

Silas, I am ONE person, for starters, not part of some "crowd."

Further, nothing I said about my playing electric vs. my playing acoustic should have been misconstrued as to imply a slam on backing tracks. Specifically, what you went on to quote as you hurled yet ANOTHER ad hoc, un-moderated personal insult, was talking about the use of effects pedals with an electric guitar, and how it is easier for me to get away with stuff on an electric guitar using effects that it is on an acoustic guitar where I cannot hide behind anything like that. That had NOTHING to do with backing tracks. Nothing. Period.

Note again I'm not calling you names, hurling ad hoc comments, as I have not done each and every time you've taken to this behavior in here. I would appreciate it if you would simply ignore me now and I'll do the same with you. I foolishly thought that after you finally apologized after leaving an ad hoc out of topic insult about me on another message and took it down, that you had decided to not do this anymore.

Soundcircel Flanagan

I have no problem with backing tracks at all

As said before the voice is an instrument as well,
most singers give a cover an unique twist to it.

i wished i had backing tracks with vocals *lol*
( cant sing at all )

It's all about how you do it,
use backing if you want, give the song a new twist.
and if you can record you can re-do the song,
make your own backing tracks and add a little bit of spice to it....

Fyrm Fouroux

I do not find the Hobbyist vs. Professional distinction to be a helpful one. When I was running a small live music club in the North East of England for about a decade I was booking international and national musicians who seemed to be just about scraping a living out of full time gigging (mainly on this indie acoustic pub circuit we had). A cursory glance at the sort of cars or vans they turned up in was enough to confirm the fact that they were not making a lot of money as musicians. It was the fact that most of them didn't have a day job that defined them as professional, not their standard of musicianship, although there were some fine musicians amongst them.

I then also booked a bunch of regional artists who I would describe as semi-professional since, by and large, they also had a day job and travelled to regional gigs only in the evenings (with no overnight stay necessary). Again, that classification was pragmatic and not based upon musicianship. Every other week we played out our local resident singers who would probably have to be described as hobbyists. We happened to have a very strong set of songwriters in the club and these amateurs were frequently superior in terms of their originality of composition, when compared to many of the visiting professionals. Clearly this is my subjective judgement.

I know this thread has got a bit heated on the topic of an 'acoustic crowd' but I think I shall blunder ahead and say a couple of words on that issue. I am primarily an acoustic guitarist. And that is where my heart lies. Given the choice, I would not go to listen to someone singing to backing tracks. I did go to listen to Kim once and I accept that she is a very fine singer - but I doubt very much if I shall go again. That sort of thing is not what I am into. That doesn’t mean I don’t want other people to perform like that or go listen to the shows. But I do know what I like and what I don’t like.

I am not a purely acoustic performer through and through. So I am wide open to all sorts of criticism in this debate. For example, apart from acoustic guitar, I also play a Yamaha Clavinova electronic piano (badly). I have sometimes used it in my shows, mainly playing live to put floaty chords under spooky long poems. But I have also played two pre-recorded pieces in my shows where I have used the Clavinova's organ and sax voices, taking them into separate tracks in my Cakewalk Sonar 7 Professional Edition software. I think I also pre-recorded an acoustic guitar lead into another track. I’ve got a feeling I put some drums in from the Clavinova too. My live performance was spoken voice into the mic as I played the mix back. One piece was entitled "Burnt toast in the marmalade" and the other was "She blamed it on the Peking duck". So I do use pre-recorded tracks. In terms of my previous post, these would be examples of a fusion between DAWcapella and Bacapella songs.

When I was playing a gig last week, Woody (who helps to look after Cascadia Harmonics) suggested to me that I might think about singing the Gilbert and Sullivan song "Model of a Modern Major General" from Pirates of Penzance. Now only a musical sadist would have made such a suggestion. Still, I do have fairly high formal music examinations in classical bass-baritone singing, and for a while I thought about his request seriously. My rl partner lent me both the sheet music and a CD with that track recorded. I am not good enough on the piano to play the accompaniment, and the vocal chorus sections would clearly be impossible. So, I went on the internet and found that I could possibly buy a Karaoke version of Gilbert and Sullivan hits on CD that included the MMMG song. I decided in the end that, while I think I could just about have managed it as a young man, it is probably too difficult for me to sing now. So I didn’t buy the Karaoke track. My point is that I seriously considered it. I mention this to demonstrate once again that I do flirt with the possibilities of Bacapella (see my previous post).

However, if I look deeply into myself, I know that I am an acoustic snob. I sometimes play in rl at venues/gatherings that have evolved from a tradition where the music is made without use of electricity (no PA system, nothing). Of course, things are different now and most pubs in England have their own PA system installed, and the old acoustic pianos in the corner of the bar are long since gone. At these venues, there is normally a fairly sharp distinction made between a band night (where rock bands or the equivalent are booked to play) and so-called acoustic nights. Acoustic nights are no longer strictly speaking acoustic, since people are plugging their electro-acoustic guitars into the mixer and the singers are breathing into the microphones. However, the use of the PA on an ‘acoustic’ night IMHO is primarily to combat customer noise in the bar. If you have a quiet attentive audience, you should not need a PA system in a small room, if you can sing properly. Of course, in SL, you do need the equipment that will stream up your sound.

Sometimes, in rl, I find you get quite a lot of busking in from other musicians who are present in the audience. For example, there is a good blues harmonica player who sometimes turns up to these gigs and if he is there, and I am on stage about to play my blues song “I gave my baby a well-cooked Brussels sprout”, I will call out over the mic “Hey, Jim, do you wanna come and play on this one?” and he will get up and do that. Sometimes a person who is good at playing lead guitar will get up and put a bit on top of somebody else. If there are a few in playing Irish tunes, you might get someone playing the whistle busking in, and so forth.

Against this background, my mates and I were a bit dumbfounded a few months ago when a young man took the stage and gave the guy working the mixer a lead from his mp3 player which he had taped to the mic stand. Up until that moment, we had been able to see the musicians who were making the music. We could see, very clearly, their gestures to one another when they played the occasional bum note and so forth. Suddenly there was the noise of a full orchestra swirling around the pub, and this guy – this solitary guy with no other musician in sight – singing into the mic. I have to say that we were not impressed.

The convention on these occasions is to applaud the musicians at the end of their song. The question in this case is: who, exactly, are we applauding? The (living) musicians who played the backing track are not present. I therefore see the singer as parasitically basking in the reflected glory of the absent players.

I believe that listening to music is all about making quality judgements. However, these judgements are made within a context. Think, for example, of an apple. I might say this is a good apple and if I am an artist about to paint a still life basket of fruit, the goodness might refer to the apple’s colour and shape. Another time, in the kitchen, my apple might be good if it tastes sweet and juicy.

I think we use context when making judgements about music. The feeling of discomfort I had when the young man taped his mp3 player to the mic stand and took a lead out to the PA, was that this sort of thing messed with the context of live music as it was being played on that night in the pub. Another night might be advertised as a Karaoke night and everyone will know that that is what is going to happen. And then a different set of criteria can be brought to bear in terms of how good the artist is.

I really don’t like the use of backing tracks and I avoid Karaoke nights like the plague. I’ve never really enjoyed going to rock concerts and I don’t like going to listen to bands in pubs, either. In my rank order of preferences, Karaoke nights come very low down on my list, probably just above Bingo or watching televised big screen soccer matches. It was my thoughts about this sort of thing that led me to coin the terms Bacapella and DAWcapella in my previous post. I’m telling you how I feel about this. I’m not suggesting that you have to feel the same way as me on this issue.

In SL we can’t actually see what is happening in rl to generate the sound that streams back down to us. So the boundaries are fuzzier than they might be in rl. Are the musicians performing on a level playing field? I’m not sure that they are. If no distinction is made, then it is my acoustic guitar up against the likes of a symphony orchestra, a big band, or a rock group formed from professional studio musicians.

….and am I whingeing? Yes, I think I am a bit. But I have already declared myself to be an acoustic snob - so what do you expect. Did I hear you mention DJs? Don’t get me started. Is my position defensible? I very much doubt it Smile

hexx

i love what lesser minds call karaoke. simply because i can't play all the instruments and keep an eye on what's happening in sl, and say hi to the peeps who took the time to come and check my gig out.

it's a lotta work, them guitars and synths and assorted madness. and then get he balance in the mix right.

oh, and yes. i am lazy Embarassed

hexx

Silas Scarborough

Jambalaya

Oh good - just what we need. More drama on the internet. Rolling Eyes

Y'know what? This divisive bullshit is childish and completely counter-productive. No one has to like everybody, but there's nothing to be gained by insulting people and stirring up bad feelings. It only makes this place seem like an exclusive little club, and certainly there is enough of that perception around already.

vonjohin

Ok, no moderation?

Fine. Gloves are off. This is how you roll? I'll give it back. I'll lay it down, now. I'm done trying to make nice.

First of all, you want a long list of people who think you are an asshat and suck, badly? I got a huge list. I'm going to be the one with the balls to tell you now in public. You have no idea how many people describe you with three words: Worst Tone Ever

How ironic that so many would IM and PM me here with the same words to describe you. Even your "friends" here say "Silas has issues." Yep, issues is an understatement in the grandest of descriptions.

Tell us about your pouty, bratty little stomping off from the forum a few weeks ago, Silas. How you insulted everyone on this forum on your ignorant little "My Duck Soup" blog and vowed never to return with some dramatic posting. And tell us why you suddenly came back and that posting magically disappeared? Interesting. Tool.

Now you're posting more mean things about this forum there, even insulting the "middle aged women" who "run the music scene".

elvisduffy

Holy cow! Rise above fellas. Let the music do the talkin'.

I been to both yer shows and there were folks enjoying both. Let the fans decide. Go to your corners and count to ten. Can't we all get along?

vonjohin

He wont let me rise above. I tried, I didn't reply in kind for six weeks while I waited for the mods to take his insults down. Uncalled for, outright insults he hurled at me, when I wasn't even the one he was replying to. He's a prick. Nobody moderated. They left it there. Not a single word said to the prick. He kept insults coming. He doesn't understand anything else. It isn't on this message board only, there are a couple of others he's left his prickish footprints on, too.

The mods ignored the PM's I sent. I didn't reply with insults. He didn't even moderate himself until I called him on the carpet. I walked away, hoping he would act like a grown up, and he starts on it again. So screw him. I'm through with this shit.

Its all insults, name calling, nasty insults and personal stuff. I've had enough. Sorry you had to see it. Maybe he only understands nastiness. I gave it back this time. I'm tired of it. He leaves insults to me and others, left and right, nobody does a thing about it, says anything, moderates anything, enough. If he wants blood, he's got it. He's been picking fights we me since I showed up, and nobody wants to say a word. Enough is enough and I broke.

elvisduffy

Man, I feel a blues classic is in the making. Smile

Love the way you groove that tamborine with your foot.

Fyrm Fouroux

vonjohin

Thank you.

vonjohin

ticious

Come on now . . . we don't moderate because this is an open forum and we expect everyone here to be self policing and to act like adults. So lets all act like adults. If you want to say something directly at some other person in the forum, please use pm.

This post is directed at ANYONE who is angry with some other ONE person and wishes to let the other ONE person know. Please EVERYONE, if your comment is not intended for the community at large, use pm, not public threads.

In order to maintain this as a public and open forum, we have agreed to take that stance that NO posts will EVER be edited or deleted except for obvious, off topic spam or posts giving away personal, real life details about another person. If we can't take that stance, where the hell do we draw the line?

But please know that posts become too personal and too flaming are likely to be locked. This means you get to live with your bad words and childish behavior permanently. . . .there will be no going back and editing them out. Any visitor curious enough to see why the thread was locked will be welcome to observe your bad behavior.

So come on, BOTH of you, rise above this shit for ALL of our sakes. None of us want to read it and this kind of thing completely undermines this forum, which is here for everyone, not for just you. And if you don't like the conversation here to the point that you can't behave when you come here, fine no one's making you click the link.

Slimmie, I think it's time to close this one . . . . boys, if you wanna retract something, I'd suggest you do it now.

And a pair of apologies to the community might be in order as well. I don't give a rip if you apologize to each other or if you meet out back with knives and clubs, but please, whatever you do, take it OUT of our view.

Kim Seifert

Tommy CUlt

.... so, to sum up, it would seem the use of backing tracks is both acceptable and widespread - even some professional acoustic players use or consider using them. Smile

Not every person in SL will like every musicians music (go figure Razz

) Most of all - have fun at what you do. This is SL, a place where people get to do things they may never have done in RL - sometimes this point is lost Wink

Bourque Rau

anyone who performs in SL/RL is "putting it out there", expressing, sharing, creating ... I'm flummoxed about how their choice of performance is derided by some in both worlds. (And I ponder "is there a similar discussion for those musicians who ONLY play an instrument but don't sing?" ... )

Art/music is subjective, more so than most other endeavors we undertake.

I have my preferences, I rarely revisit a performer who doesn't suit me, there are genres of music that my ear doesn't crave. But if I'm in earshot of such a performance I always applaud and appreciate the effort.

in RL and SL, however, an artist of any genre whose work I may adore (whether music, art, literature, film) will find me absent from future performances if their off stage expressions, GRANTING them full right to express! ... pains me too deeply. 'cause I grant myself full right to miss out on experiences I might otherwise enjoy for sake of personal harmony.

Silas Scarborough

Silas Scarborough

I'm not going to respond to what von Johin said. The next logical step based on his escalation would be to rip him up musically as he did for the second time with me but what's the point. He writes like he's paid by the word so there's no possible chance of winning any forum battle anyway.

EvaMoon

Silas Scarborough

I've canceled all gigs in SL and will confine my activities to Eden. I trust this will be sufficient.

vonjohin

For the record, I sent Silas several PM, the last of which sat unanswered for six weeks before I finally deleted it from being undelivered, asking him to cool it, take off the mean ad hoc things he said about me. He didn't want to answer or reply. The ad hoc insults remained. I asked for mod help. The mods never answered the PM, or even opened it, for over six weeks. I asked for help, here and in-world with him. I asked his "friends" to say something to him, ask him to tone it down. They would only say "Silas has issues" or "He's prone to these kind of things and they don't endear him to many." Help though, I could not get it.

Perhaps this time, the second time, that Silas has posted mean things about this forum, the people who "run" SL music in general, etc. and vowed to stay away it will really happen. When he did the mean insults last time, he ran away to his blog, posted nasty stuff about this forum and the people who use it, and stayed away about a week. Then he took that down from his site, hoping you wouldn't know, and came back to stir the pot.

If the mod had read the PM I sent, they would have seen I was trying very hard to take the high road and rise above this, but they never opened the PMs. Before Silas pushed, again and again like a taunting cyberbully, I never before returned fire. I always replied with "that was uncalled for" and tried to be adult about it. Six weeks, on only one of the worst examples of his nastiness, I watched my name get smeared for nothing. Nothing. After getting called on the carpet, he finally apologized.

I am not given to outburst like that. Silas pushed too far. I am sorry, to everyone but Silas, that I did this and they had to see it. If he thinks posting mean, ad hoc things about people is fair game to have left online and show up in Google searches, so be it. Now he has his own nice collection of mean things out there for people to find if they ever wanted to search for him.

If there is no moderation of mean, nasty, ad hoc insults to other posters, then the unfortunate result is that when a poster gets attacked he either lets the attack stay, which is then spidered by Google, and it is there forever, or it gets removed and hopefully falls off the search. Optionally, they are left to defend themselves. Finally, I defended myself. I've had to experience this in Google because Silas is a mean person who says mean things, so now he gets a taste of his own meds. Spider on, Google.

Again, I am sorry to everyone here for my outburst. I have never done this before and I don't see me every doing it again.

I will only add that WHEN I SEE HIS insults removed in their entirety, I will edit these posts to nothing. Its up to him. He threw the first punches in this battle he wanted with me. He can take the postings down.

ticious

vonjohin

Its a wonderful quote. I like it. I tried the concept. The taunting continued.
Silas is a cyberbully. This is why he launches ad hoc attacks on people. Not just me. Oh, its far from just me. Read what he says to others, and to what he says to people not even here to defend themselves, like for example, Moody. Its a shame. The mods know where the line is drawn without having to get into minutia. The line is common courtesy. Its stuff we learned, or should have learned, in kindergarten. If you wouldn't want it said about you, you shouldn't say it about somebody else.

The only problem with Tacitus's approach is that he didn't factor in the 21st century and Google. The abuse no longer gradually dies away. It stays forever on the Internet, indexed, crawled and spidered for all to see. This is what makes moderation of ad hoc insults, mean-spirited, nasty things said to others in what is supposed to be a "community" a good thing.

I am, again, sorry for the outburst. I should not respond to a bully, it makes it worse. Every man has his breaking point. He broke me. I crossed that line. To you and the others, I apologize.

admin

The thread is now closed.