Jojamela Soon
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Stream skips and dropsWe very seldom have trouble with our stream at SC, but twice now, with the same artist, I've had big problems with the stream skipping, warbling and dropping (usually for just a few seconds- maybe a buffering problem?)
I tried listening to the stream via winamp instead of SL just to make sure it's not a SL problem. At this point I think the problem may be on the artists's end. They're using a cable connection so it should not be a bandwidth problem. It also doesn't happen when the artist is just talking, only with the singing and guitar playing.
Anyone have any ideas on what the problem could be so I can give some advice?
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Distilled1
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its cable ...cable SUCKS! ... well at least any comcast if they are in a populated area and many homes are connected at the same time.
I know a couple people that have this issue off and on, only while singing and playing but talking is fine... so maybe I am wrong with the comcast jumped aheas not reading. Could this be an issue with the computers power supply? just wondering if the soundcard is trying to possess more than a simpler sound and taking power from the earthnet card? or ??? never thought about that, I think we should pop this into the help with tech issues, it could be a simple as a bad mic maybe ??? or a sound card we all want to stay away from.
next artist I have with this issue I am going to try and collect their specs what card computer connection music hard/software etc. see if maybe we can find a constant with this eh?
EDIT:Maybe wi-fi and not wired connection? that will do it for sure
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RayW
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One thing about voice vs music, drops and skips are a lot more obvious on music. Voice can get away with a lot of errors.
The other thing is the CABLE. Quality depends on how many subscribers are online at any given moment.
Plus, I had a minor issue when I first got cable...lots of drop-outs. Someone told me to look at the lower channels (2-5) to see the quality. And, yes, mine was bad. And my bad service tracked with my bad reception. Got a cable tech in. Turned out to be a poor "T" connector on my line, near where it came in the house. Pulled it (didn't need it) and things have been great ever since.
Just some ideas. Could be the computer, card, mixer (if has one), mic or any cable inbetween.
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luketemplar
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i think the problem may be due to processor power more than bandwidth. Marijkie Freenote suffered terribly from sound skipping when trying to stream and run SL at the same time. Problem was worse when singing quickly - less noticable when talking and with slow songs. When she tried with 2 seperate computers her sound was flawless. Obviously this isn't an option for everyone but reducing SL to running at the bare minimum requirements and keeping your camera focused on a very small part of the venue which has no avatars may help.
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Silas Scarborough
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Cable, so long it's connected correctly, is still the fastest connection you can get. FIOS looks cool but check out the price tag.
If you're getting skips, ask the performer to check the quality setting on the stream. Any higher than 64K is going into dangerous territory unless s/he is getting red-hot performance out of the line. Many people are running home LANs. If another computer on that LAN is doing something, that will suck up bandwidth and cause drops. Consider dropping the bandwidth you're allowing SL to consume when you're performing so the audio stream will have a better shot.
Sure, sometimes it's the network jacking you around but usually it's because the line is over-saturated at the source (i.e. you're doing it to yourself).
One more: if you have been using Skype, make sure it's shut completely off.
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ticious
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I once had a MAJOR problem where the stream was skipping horribly but only for European listeners. It was perfect for American and Canadian listeners. Outside SL, in WinAmp, it was perfect in the US and Canada, but the Europeans couldn't even connect.
I got hold of my stream provider, he detected nothing (he was in the US) and said it was probably the listener's isp. I pointed out that there were 40 odd effected listeners in Germany, the UK and the Netherlands all having the same problem and that I could NOT believe they were all just coincidentally having the same ISP problem. He got on the phone to his provider as I switched to my back up stream (which worked flawlessly).
It turned out to be some sort of hardware problem in a downstream relay and was effecting ALL of the streams my provider was supporting at that time. His provider fixed the hardware problem and then all was well again.
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Haroldthe Burrel
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I'm no tech, but I was told it was all about the higher bitrate uploading like Silas says. One person to talk to about this would be Melvin Took if you can get hold of him in world. He spoke on this subject to a large group in Menorca one day. Maybe Slim or Silas can remember.
HtB
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Vincent Merricks
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I'm the artist that Jojamela mentioned. It's not my current mixer causing the problem as it happened even worse with the previous sound interface I used. We have Comcast hi-speed internet service. I am using my laptop and it is a wireless connection. I can't go direct because of the location of the router/modem, which is in My mother-in-law's room because that room is in the center of the house. My music equipment is a few rooms away. I'm using am Alesis Multimix8 USB sound interface. USB because the laptop doesn't have a built in sound card. We do have multiple computers connected at the same time. Usually only mine and my mother-in-law's, which is connected via ethernet cable to the router/modem and she rarely does more than check her mail and have Yahoo messenger and Weatherbug running.
We have had a problem recently being disconnected for anywhere from a few seconds to a minute at a time on both the wired and wireless systems. Luckily it only happened once during a performance and it reconnected quickly and automatically. This happens off and on all day and I'm looking into what the problem may be, but it seems to be an issue that may have to do with Comcast and not with us or the wireless although we do lose local networking when this happens. I don't think it would cause the skipping either, but maybe a period of 30 seconds or so wothout sound. We recently got a new Linksys router/modem from Comcast because of longer lasting connection issues we were having a few months ago.
I have used both Simplecast and Winamp/ShoutCast to stream. It seems to be worse with SimpleCast (I know, that's strange). The SimplCast settings I used are MP3Pro, 64kb/s, 44.1khz, stereo. The Winamp settings are: for Input, Soundcard (rather than Winamp) and 44.1Hz Stereo. The encoder settings are MP3, 64kbps, 22.050kHz, Stereo. I'd appreciate any help with this issue and I'm running pings and other tests to show Comcast and see if they can help with the intermittent connection problems.
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luketemplar
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Like any symptom there's usually more than one diagnosis possibility to the problem - consider then a 'simple' to 'complicated' approach. if lowering the bitrate doesn't help, consider asking the performer to try streaming without SL running. If none work consider speaking to the stream provider.
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ticious
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| Vincent Merricks wrote: | | I am using my laptop and it is a wireless connection. |
That's where my money lies for this particular case. But like Luke says, there is no 'one size fits all' answer to stream skips. I always go for the lower bit-rate first. Sometimes it helps, lots of times it doesn't. I once had a problem that the physical cable that ran from my basement to the upstairs room where my pc was was worn out. I moved the pc down stairs (being too cheap to replace that line) and now I have no problem at all.
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RayW
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One thing about Comcast, which I have, too ...
I complained for three or four weeks before the tech finally came out. He said that they turned on a monitor to my line and found significant connectivitiy problems (they had a name for it) off and on during the day. That's what prompted them to send the tech ... didn't cost me a cent (over the normal high cost of cable, that is). But, he also commented that I could spend some bucks and replace the cabling in the house. (ain't gonna happen soon LMTY).
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Distilled1
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Silas I would put my 29.95 usd a month 11,000Kbs DSL line up against any cable connection, unless only (1) person is on it, why? because cable unlike DSL is a shared service, in my neighborhood on cable (had it 2 days) I was running 758Kbs down load and 120Kbs up because every other 40 homes on the street were running it and watching you tube 
my DSL is mine my line it test out at 11,000Kbs downstream + and 7500Kbs up I can serve about 10 people right from my lan on a 128k shoutcast without buffering ! I will never go back to cable. have fiber Optics at work in a construction trailer, it is very poor quality but I put that on the crap computers they give us.
OK Vincent, a solution although maybe not feasible would be to run a hard wire to the room your in from the hub, I did that for the wifes laptop about 30$ for the wire and some sweat. it picked up the performance drastically and as Silas said run 64 kbs set mono and set your SL to the lowest quality possible, point your camera at a wall so its not trying to download textures while you play and keep everyone else off the lan in the house while you play see if that works. if you ever need a place to try out setings feel free to ask I have 2 servers and an empty club lol  [/b]
EDIT: to add Ray, yeah but its not just in the house its all the old lines coming in that were not designed for it connections and such, I had issues when I switched from my original dsl (never use earthlink) went cable went back to a direct DSL supplier called about low bandwidth came out the next day ran a new drop from the pole to the house...free and have been running that speed constantly! since 
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Tessira2
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This professional geek is placing money on the wireless connection as first culprit. Wireless lines are notorious for wavering in bandwidth. Buy a long cable and run it on the floor first. If it works, than get creative with hiding the cable line.
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Doubledown Tandino
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I am a stream server provider with over 70 happy renters from just SL users. I have 3 different servers to combat any and all issues with anyone.
There are so many reasons as to why there would be quality issues, skips, etc.
I would be able to deduce what the problem is just by hearing the stream.
The one thing I'm pretty sure of is that it's not the cable net.
If you want to let me have a listen to the stream, just IM me inworld, and I'll be able to tell whats causing the problems and what to do to fix it.
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RayW
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I agree with both of you ... try a wire.
I have to admit, I run SL on an ethernet wire (25' long) to get the best possible speed out of my cable. I run my Simplecast PC (with my connection to the streaming host) on wireless because I don't need the speed there. But, sharing both on a wireless connection could be asking too much of it.
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Doubledown Tandino
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| RayW wrote: | One thing about Comcast, which I have, too ...
I complained for three or four weeks before the tech finally came out. He said that they turned on a monitor to my line and found significant connectivitiy problems (they had a name for it) off and on during the day. That's what prompted them to send the tech ... didn't cost me a cent (over the normal high cost of cable, that is). But, he also commented that I could spend some bucks and replace the cabling in the house. (ain't gonna happen soon LMTY). |
Throttling?
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Vincent Merricks
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Thanks everyone for your input on this. I'd like to get a full show in without any skipping sometime. I know it happens once in a while regardless, but If I make it good on my end, then I can blame SL like everyone else. Doubledown, if I catch you in-world, maybe we can work on this. Luke, I've used the free stream kiosk next to Vibe a few times. Thanks for having it there. I'll have to drop you a little "Linden Love" sometime for the times I've used it. The first thing I think I'll try is to use a separate PC for the stream and see if that helps. It's wireless too, but I'd like to know for sure if it's a a wireless issue or something else. Also, I'd need somewhere around 40' of cable to wire it and I seem to remember that the signal degrades with distance. I think there is a wire made for longer runs, but I'd have to check on it. I'll let you know the results. Thanks again.
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Doubledown Tandino
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It's absolutely definitely a wireless issue first off. It's impossible to do a flawless non-dropping show with wireless. No matter what, there's always going to be times where the signal disappears and that'll always cause the sound to drop. Even if you had your computer sitting directly ontop of the wireless modem..
So, as the live streamer, as the listener, and as a SLer, problems will occur when you're on wireless.
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Silas Scarborough
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How many times have you heard people complaining about lag but how many times have you asked them why they're running on a nickel ninety five computer that can't kick itself out of its own way. A huge amount of lag is client-side and isn't an SL problem at all.
The same is true of stream skips. It takes a huge amount of compute power to run SL, not so much to run the stream, and a gigantic amount if you're using on-board effects for your audio. For example, you might be adding a touch of reverb, compression, or whatever to your signal before you send it out. Every bit of on-board signal processing that you're doing is increasing the chance of stream skips.
Example: I've got a Mac Pro quad processor (two dual-core CPU chips). Because my PC's motherboard died, I'm running everything on the Mac. Now I don't use external amplifiers or mixers and I'm undoubtedly doing vastly more on-board signal processing, amp simulation and whatnot than most people but the box has gobs of power and yet I will still get stream skips if I do not limit the bandwidth I let SL use while I'm playing.
It's very unlikely that it's SL doing it to you or all the streams would skip. It's not likely it's the stream provider as, so long as the server doesn't crash, it will probably work. What the server is doing is not some huge feat of technical wizardry. As Luke said previously, look for the simple solution and you've probably got the right one. It's an even-money bet that the problem comes from something you're doing and that's most likely overloading your box.
Does your computer have at least 2 GB of memory? If not, make it that way. It's cheap and it's easy.
If you have a dual-core process on your PC, ensure SL is assigned an affinity to only one. Sooner or later the Lindens may come to realize that multi-core processors are here to stay and will actually optimize SL to use them but it hasn't happened yet. (Disregard this for Mac computers as the problem only shows on PCs)
There appears to be a difference in bandwidth consumption for Macs and PCs. My typical configuration is to run a PC to support SL and a Mac to support audio and this has been reliable with a 64K quality setting for the stream over Nicecast. However, while the PC has been down I have tried using an older Mac to support SL while using the newer one for audio and I have seen a signifcant increase in stream skips. I've now abandoned the old Mac and run everything on the Mac Pro, albeit with SL bandwidth cut down to about 200K.
Consider also the music protocol you are using as Icecast 2 is said to be less CPU-intensive than Shoutcast. I've not run any benchmarks to verify it but you may want to perform some of your own to get to the bottom of the problem.
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luketemplar
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great post silas. I think this thread needs to be summarised and turned into an FAQ - cos i think skipping is a very common problem especially when you are trying it for the first time.
Waiting to hear what solution works for Vincent first though
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Vincent Merricks
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That is a great post Silas. The Alesis Multimix8 USB mixer/sound interface that I use has preset effects built in and aux sends, so any effects I might use in my setup are added before it gets to the pc. I usually only add a little of the reset reverb from the mixer. My laptop that I'm using for SL has a 1.6GHz processor and 1 gig of RAM. The one I'm using now to run the dtream is a 233mHz with, I think, 192mb Ram.
Luke, I think you're right about the FAQ. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to try running the stream through a separate pc, just so we'd know for sure. I spent an hour or so about 2am EDT at the practice kiosk next to Vibe (thanks again, Luke) I set up SimpleCast on another computer and tried that. It was still skipping a bit, so I changed the settings to MP3: 56kb/s, 44.1 kHz, Mono and played 5 songs as well as a few mp3's and there was no skipping at all and no drops. I'm hoping that this solved the issue and keeping my fingers crossed. I play Tuesday at the Hummingbird, that will be the real test.
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Jojamela Soon
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Woohooo!!!
/me looks forward to next Thursday
Thanks everyone for your input, this will be a huge help with some newbies that we're about to bring online. The FAQ is an excellent idea !!
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Doubledown Tandino
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Quick guide to ensure the best quality:
1) dont use wireless to stream
2) turn SL graphic settings to lowest (64 draw distance, no particles, move graphic bars to minimum, disable voice)
3) dont run any other programs other than SL & your streaming program (especially virus programs, updates, any background programs
4) try not to move your avatar, or do much of anything other than text chat in SL
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luketemplar
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This thread has been summarised and posted as an FAQ - suggestions and corrections would be appreciated.
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Nad
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I have a comcast cable connection and g5 mac tower and they can do whatever I want them to do without fail. I wouldn't dream of going lower than 128 myself, there's too much stuff on my tracks (say overproduced) to slide thru less.
I DID have an issue with skipping I went nuts over for months. I mention this in case it may be an issue with you. I had been with comcast maybe 5-6 years before beginning to stream in SL. They gave me the cable modem ya know... one day it occured to me - in tech terms this is an ancient modem. So I unhooked it - took it down to comcast and asked them to swap it out. The comcast clerk's eyes buldged like "WE gave you THAT?!" and I was all well yeah years ago. To them it looked like Eli Whitney's cotton gin. They gave me a new modem (which was maybe 25% the size of the old one) - took it home hooked it up and have had no problems since.
Even if yer modem aint that old - they can get flakey. If you have comcast or a similar service it is worth swapping out to see.
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Doubledown Tandino
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yeah, look at the modem and if you see the word "baud" written anywhere... time to upgrade
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Vincent Merricks
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I'm psyched! I played a little over an hour at Circe's Sunset Jazz Club yesterday morning. The lag was terrible, but everyone said the stream worked great and they really enjoyed the set. So setting up Simplecast on the separate computer and with the slightly lower settings seems to have solved the problems I was having. I also lowered the bandwidth that SL uses just in case because both computers are wireless and have to us the same cable connection. I had Simplecast record the stream and listened to it later in the day. No skips or dropouts. Now I just need some practice playing some of those songs on the 12-string. 
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Jojamela Soon
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YAY!(yay) Vincent!! can't wait till thursday whoot!
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Distilled1
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Alright glad to hear it\!
I am going to have to look into this simple cast. if its lighter than the shoutcast dsp just cause the lighter the better I say!
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