SLMC

ticious · Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 2600 Location: Chicago

But Kim, isn't the problem with that analogy the fact that, while the stream is plugged into my parcel, and my guests are all listening to it, there may be others listening to the stream, if it's not my stream (in that I'm not the person with admin powers over the stream) others not even SL, over whom I have no control (and may not even know about so can't even provide a count on) unless I have control access to and control of the stream?

I know, this would all have to play out in courts, we don't have answers. But I don't see how a parcel owner can be the responsibility party if they don't have control of the stream. Or is someone else, as in the case of the radio station actually, responsible to pay fees to cover anyone else listening to the stream?

Case in point, Mankind did a show last weekend that was simulcasted to several venues in SL (we'll leave out the fact that he was streaming from Amsterdam, as an unnecessary complication). Would each venue be liable to pay fees individually? And the url was published (at least I think I heard that, and it's often the case in these kinds of events) so there were likely listeners who were not in SL. How are they covered? Only the person with Admin access to the stream can actually say how many people were listening.
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RayW · Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 953 Location: Twin Cities, MN

Ticious's point is the true heart of this matter, and why LL is NOT responsible.

The stream may LOOK like it's coming from SL to the person viewing it on an SL client. But, in truth, it is originating from the stream source (the performer/DJ's computer) and being relayed from another source (the stream relay server). After this point, the performance can be picked-up by ANYONE IN THE WORLD!

The whole thing is complicated by the fact that we try to create the illusion of RL in SL. But, are things really happening there?

With a Pub analogy (sorry if someone already said this) it could be like playing the radio or TV (Tele) there. But, I doubt it's LL playing the radio. It would most likely be the venue or land owner ... which could be Governor Linden, but most likely won't be.

Now, some clever lawyer could muddle the whole thing up. But, being just a logical person on this and not a lawyer, I would hope a sensible solution would evolve soon!

Playing of prerecording material is a whole different animal than Live performances. And, the RIAA may have more to say on this. But, for playing material with the agreement of the copyright owner, everything should be cool. I gave up my rights for collecting a fee on several of my songs for RL college radio ... just to get heard by people.
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Fyrm Fouroux · Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject:

Kim Seifert · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 212 Location: Ohio

Tish. In rl, the radio station has responsibilities but so does the club owner that turns on a radio and tunes it in to that station. Thousands of clubs can tune into the same station and each one is individually liable for playing a sound recording in public at their place. Those clubs only have to be licensed to play covered sound recordings. I don't think this applies to sl venue owners that have no commercial advantage but that is just my opinion.

Live performances are not playing covered sound recordings that are owned by the record companies that would have a vested interest. Live performances make derivative works and therefore, even if you could argue that those performances are recorded for the time that it takes to put it on a server temporarily and rebroadcast for all to hear, the rights to the new sound recordings made are owned by the performing artists and original songwriters. A license to perform covers in this regard is the license to perform musical works, not play sound recordings. It is my belief that the stream owners are liable for that.

So with respect to live music in SL, it is my belief that stream owners are liable to pay fees for performance of musical works and the live performers are then covered and so are the sl venue owners.

With respect to streamed music that is prerecorded and those sound recordings are owned by record companies, it is my belief that the stream owners are liable to pay for a license to play sound recordings and sl venue owners may or may not be liable to pay for licenses as well based on the structure of their business.

I speculate (and I emphasize speculate because this is not something that I have researched in depth nor discussed in detail with credible sources), that a sl landowner would be liable if he used a radio at his place of business where he is making a good amount of money. On the other hand, if a sl landowner is playing music from a radio and has not paid the radio station or charged a fee to listen to that music and has no commercial advantage there, then I think he is exempt. But again, this part of my analysis is pure speculation. - Edited to clarify that this paragraph pertains ONLY to sound recordings owned by record companies.
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the Professor · Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: a few quick points

I think that some of this misses the point a bit.

1) RL analogies may or may not apply at all in virtual worlds. We just do not know. RL analogies are often how one tries to figure out what laws and practices apply . . . and in the end, everything RL might just flop over to virtual worlds. But we don't know that.
2) US law may apply to SL (given the location of it's servers). But there is a HUGE amount of internet case law that shows that venue and jurisdiction are NOT set, taken for granted, or fixed. Venue and jurisdiction are contested in these spaces, so, again, assuming that US law just applies, by analogy, isn't "sure," (though it IS what we often work with here).
3) I have NEVER EVER EVER said or implied that Linden IS RESPONSIBLE. The degrees of their legal responsibilities for stuff (for that matter, the responsibilities that any provider of virtual worlds has) are all highly contested issues. There just isn't enough legislation or case history, either, to be sure how terms of service, click-through contracts, codes of conduct, etc., are going to hold up in US (or any other) courts over the next decade or two. Right now, virtually every user agrees to everything cause they don't read much of it and the provider of the software is totally in charge as contract law often trumps IP law. But cracks are starting to appear in that facade, some even at the case level.

With regard to paying the license freight for (especially) live music . . . I've suggested that it is in Linden Lab's best interest to see that cover artists are able to continue providing entertainment in SL and that the venue owners who host them are able to continue their businesses. I think that if standard fees were assessed to those venue owners, most of them would either go out of business or not hire people who play covers. The result of either of those outcomes would, in my view, deal a crippling blow to the range of available and enjoyable social activities in SL . . . I think it's a risk that LL should not take. I am NOT as clear (in my head, for me) about what LL should do concerning internet radio stations that get played inworld. I sort of suspect that they are going to have to operate by whatever rules and practices the FCC has set up for internet radio, modified (0r not) by accommodations for virtual world considerations. I DO NOT have a proposal for internet radio. My comments and proposal only apply to what we know and participate in as "live music performances."

btw: more Senate hearing s on internet radio today: Senate panel to debate radio rules, royalty rates
Associated Press 07.29.08, 6:16 AM ET
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/07/29/ap5263613.html
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Kim Seifert · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 212 Location: Ohio

DjaiSkjellerup · Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 471

Soundcircel Flanagan · Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 481 Location: The Netherlands

/me steps out of this dicussion cause his head hurts and he has a holiday

To complicated for me.
If Gary Moore, John Miles, Nickelback or Marillion wants to sue me,
be my guest....

I dont have money anyway.

Laughing

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Cher Harrington · Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 309

ticious · Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 2600 Location: Chicago