SLMC

the Professor

I think many of you know the answer to this one . . . please enlighten me . . . you may need to correct my understanding along the way.

An SL landowner sets the url to a given media stream. When avatars enter the land and hit the music button, their computers are directed to that stream.
1) I assume that the connection is direct from their computers to the station . . . that SL and LL's servers are not involved.
2) However, is SL being used as the PLAYER? That is, I never notice (for example) iTunes opening on my machine. So SL/LL must be implicated/involved as more than a 100% total pass-through as they are providing the player? That one folds back on #1 above... if SL is the player . .. it can't be a direct connection from my computer to the streaming server/internet station?
3) I assume the internet station is able to count the number of streams that are opened (the number of listeners) . . . but can they differentiate listeners who hit them via SL from web-based listeners?

you can answer here or direct to <ell@bradley.edu> (or both) as you wish. But if we are going to "chat" about it, I prefer email. Thanks
Peace.
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Edward Lee Lamoureux
http://slane.bradley.edu/ell
ell@bradley.edu; AIM: dredleelam: SL:Professor Beliveau;http://www.thesixtyone.com/theprofessor
http://www.youtube.com/EdwardLeeLamoureux

RayW · Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 953 Location: Twin Cities, MN

/begin knowledge ...

In my limited understanding ... and I know several of you know this better than I ...

SL sends the LINK of the station to the client. And, of course, it gets that link from the media properties on the parcel of land.

The Client then has a player built into it that uses that info to play the station. But, that client does not have to be an LL provided client, now that it's open sourced. It just mostly is.

So, SL is not playing the music. SL does play ambient sounds, either server-side or client-side. But, not music or video (and with video, the client uses the Apple Quicktime player).

And, yes, internet stations can count the streams open (I have such a display for what's going on with the stream inworld). But, no, they don't know who is listening: be it an SL client or a Winamp on the desktop (completely outside of SL). They may be able to count the people listening on a website and compare their IP address (if they wanted to) to separate the web-based listeners from the others. But, that's as good as it gets. They still couldn't tell if the rest were in SL or someplace else: desktop or some other VW.

/End knowledge ..
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the Professor · Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: ray wrote

"The Client then has a player built into it that uses that info to play the station. But, that client does not have to be an LL provided client, now that it's open sourced. It just mostly is. "

If the station is being accessed via a player that is built into SL (though I know this doesn't have to be.... one could use another player), then for that use, although the stream doesn't go through their servers, it's playing through software provided by LL.

correct?
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Edward Lee Lamoureux
http://slane.bradley.edu/ell
ell@bradley.edu; AIM: dredleelam: SL:Professor Beliveau;http://www.thesixtyone.com/theprofessor
http://www.youtube.com/EdwardLeeLamoureux

Distilled1 · Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 421 Location: Chicago

yes

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ticious · Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 2600 Location: Chicago

the Professor

there has been much made about LL having no liability for music . . . roughly, cause they claim to be acting as an ISP that is not responsible for content . . . they make a big deal out of saying that they don't play the music . . . etc.

And stream-wise, that appears to be the case.

However, I think that their provision of the player, within the software in a way that most users would have great difficulty over-riding/opting out of it, would make it very difficult for them to argue pure ISP status in this matter.

Even though the music isn't playing IN Second Life, technically, speaking, the player through which the music is playing is only open on the user's machine when SL is open, is the only player playing the music, is an LL product and plays in concordance with Second Life. Though not using the SL servers at the moment, arguing that they have no role appears to me to be silly and I'd be willing to bet it will not hold up if challenged in court. They are NOT the station, nor are they the music provider. But neither was Grokster.
_________________
Edward Lee Lamoureux
http://slane.bradley.edu/ell
ell@bradley.edu; AIM: dredleelam: SL:Professor Beliveau;http://www.thesixtyone.com/theprofessor
http://www.youtube.com/EdwardLeeLamoureux

Distilled1 · Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 421 Location: Chicago

Prof. I knew this is where you were going, and I concur.

thats why my answer was yes.

IMHO it would behoove LL to just buy an all over blanket License for RIAA music to stream from they're platform.

What a mess really a mess and so new on the frontier that it will take years and years to figure out.
those of us "renting" land (basically a web page in 3-d on a server with certain space) I think at this time even if I stream Pink Floyd 24/7 radio that I produce, the most that will happen are take down notices for the time being... why? most of our streams that are rented are auto set to not public, and the ones that can be set can be set to private as well, witch I feel says they would have to log an av in go to each parcel and check whats playing.

or maybe thats what a lot of the bots are doing?
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"Being drunk is a good disguise.
I drink so that I can talk to Ass Holes,
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RayW · Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 953 Location: Twin Cities, MN

One thing I believe would be a stumbling block is that LL would have little idea (at the moment) as to who was listening and who wasn't ... because once they pass the URL on to the client, they are done. They don't know whether the client is using that info or not ... only the source server knows that (be it Internet radio or relay stream).

So, how would LL answer all the questions Distilled raised in his excellent post in another section (on copyright)? I don't think they could possibly give a close guess, much less track the info required by some of the licences.

Radio stations pay license fees based on their estimated listening audience. And, they keep very detailed records of their song plays and revenue. I don't think LL can do any of that.

So, if you guys are thinking LL is gonna pony-up... things will get ugly fast, IMO.
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the Professor · Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: virtual worlds are different

Ray,
I agree.
And Distilled, I think you are also correct.

My position is, roughly, that virtual worlds are SO different that we do not yet know how they will work. The questions of whether in-place laws and practices will apply, how, when, etc. are totally up for grabs. Duranske makes this point repeatedly in VIRTUAL LAW (ABA, 2008). In some respects, there is clarity; in others, there are only murky analogies. We won't know most of the answers until suits actually get brought (or take down notices issued) and cases go to court.

I'm not the only one who speculates that Linden Lab, in the end, is not going to get away with most of what they do under the auspices of their user agreements, terms of service, and claims to ISP status. They've already lost a major case that forced them to re-write their TOS (over land ownership); that one's just the tip of the iceberg (and of course, they are not the only virtual world or software game operator). The case they lost in PA potentially compromises ALL software TOS, esp. those in virtual worlds. Contract law is even murkier than is copyright law as it applies to virtual worlds.

Those on all threads who have noted that there currently isn't an appropriate license (so what would they buy and what would they pay?) are absolutely right. There is currently no such thing . . . AND developing one that works differently for virtual worlds or just for SL is going to be challenging, or impossible.

However, there is very little law and there are few business practices that DO flop over to virtual worlds whole cloth. Or they all do. We just don't know. I suspect that someone's going to have to innovate. Virtual worlds aren't RL; they aren't exactly an internet radio station or web site. They blend elements of many new media aspects.

Look. If we just apply the law as is . . . most of the cover artists are probably out of business in SL. But then, if we take that a step further, most of the designers are in trouble for trademark infringement too. Or maybe it's all protected under the 1st Amendment as art or free speech. We just don't know at what point which RL laws are going to be applied, though the courts HAVE been willing to take stabs at it when specific cases have come forward. There just aren't many to go by. None that I'm aware of in the music performance area (or theatre or the arts, etc. So far, only property ownership and copyright violations of graphic and scripted elements).

My suggestion isn't that it would be easy. Nor have I suggested that there's a ready formula. I've simply suggested that if most of the musical performance gets chased out of SL . . . it won't be good for SL OR for the musicians. Given that there's not much left to do in SL (after the gambling and banking leave), I think that it's in LL's best interest to save live music at all costs. There isn't revenue enough in SL to bring in high profile professional musicians with all original material. The mix we currently have is hard enough for venue owners to sustain. I have trouble seeing how they can go much longer without trying to cut a deal of some kind.

I don't think the deal would be based on real numbers. I think it would be arbitrary, and probably temporary. The music publishers would accept X amount, yearly, and see how it goes. At some point, we might get rating services or play surveys or live performers might be asked to submit playlists and venue owners patron counts.... there is probably a viable system for some accounting. But I doubt that can be worked out, front end.

Here's an analogy (gawd, sometimes I hate them). Remember that Congress has, more than once, decided to hold fire on the fact that every computational transaction on the web is a copy . . . almost all of it is illegal . . . if we count what goes on in cache on every machine. Technically, it's all one big copyright violation. In their wisdom (not often), despite advice they got from adherents to strong protection, Congress decided to belay, for now, enforcement on cache copies, in part cause they knew that not doing so would stunt the growth of the internet beyond all measure. There have been case interpretations that put this "cache as illegal copy" issue back on the table . . . we don't yet know how the cases are going to turn out or what their implications will be.

This is what LL and the music publishers need to do. The music industry needs to realize that it has to cut a deal at some point, or risk killing the goose before it can lay the golden egg in virtual worlds. It's to the mutual benefit of LL and the rights holders to craft a viable solution. Maybe the solution is a fee. Or maybe it's just a moratorium on prosecution of infringers in certain specified zones. . . .

I don't want to cry wolf before the sky starts falling.

But I am going to slink off and write some more material. Cause at this point, I can only play about 45 minutes worth of original stuff . . . and that single, short show would get REAL boring after one or two nights. I enjoy being able to play/entertain in SL and I'd like to be able to continue doing that.
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Edward Lee Lamoureux
http://slane.bradley.edu/ell
ell@bradley.edu; AIM: dredleelam: SL:Professor Beliveau;http://www.thesixtyone.com/theprofessor
http://www.youtube.com/EdwardLeeLamoureux

ticious · Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 2600 Location: Chicago

My guess as to what LL is likely to do if pushed on this point is disable the player and leave users to use some sort of open source option or 'plug in' (which actually, I think they might argue is the case now). Live music seems like a big deal to us, but it's barely a blip on their radar. They see marketing (as in corporations such as Gibson), education and meeting space as the big future here. Look at the numbers. 50k on line, less than 500 attending live music events. Also, look at the money. How many sims are there dedicated to music? How many does IBM have?

I still haven't heard any business reasons which LL would be likely to consider compelling for taking on this expense.

Edited to add: Live music vanishing from SL is not likely to have any real big impact on SL outside our little community. Not when so much of SL still doesn't even know we're here. Remember that post in the resident forums the other day where they were wishing it was possible to do what we do every day and a couple were arguing vehemently that the technology doesn't even exist. Very few came back and contradicted them and no one, not one person, came forward to say they attend live music events regularly. A couple musicians posted, but no regular live music event attendees. We don't have the profile needed to make financial demands on LL. Not yet anyway.
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